HarleyTechTalk

Quote from: Barrett on January 01, 2018, 12:44:34 PM

Quote from: mike jesse on January 01, 2018, 12:38:25 PM
I did not drill/tap for those retaining screws when I did my 124. Non-issue IMHO.

There's more than one on this site that came loose and did damage.
Harley wouldn't have put the retainer screws if it wasn't a problem.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=91028.msg1064333#msg1064333

Exactly why I would prefer to install the screws, because H-D put installed the screws in the 2011 engines.  Unfortunatly, the base I'm using for my 124" is a 2010.

So, for those who have installed the retaining screws, is there any advice out there (i.e., drill size, measurements from the edge) on how to install them?  The reason I ask is because on my 2011 the heads of the screws don't hang out too far over the bearing bore.  I'd appreciate someone's experience in this area so I don't have to reinvent the wheel.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=86965.0;all

I ended up buying the T2 case with a snap ring. For me it was a better route. It already had the Timken bearings and no need to bore the case to go bigger.

Darkhorse machined a groove in the case and used a retaining ring on my lower end to keep the right side bearing from walking. They also say it's very possible to see the right side walk when installing a Timken on the left, and it not being aligned to the right side. One of many reasons I let professionals like Darkhorse setup a lower end of this type. Not many shops are outfitted to align the two sides.


http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=87497.msg994989#msg994989

That bearing has a .003-.004 in. press fit. It would be a rare one that moves.

Interesting to note the early Dyna 99-05 SE pro crankcases dont have the retaining screws fitted, but the later style SE cases do.
I thought about fitting the screws but didn't, as I had the cases checked for crank bore alignment, and I am using an S&S 3 piece crank.

I figured the bearing has to walk a fair distance to get the retainers, and if this happens, there must be other problems than need fixing anyway.

Quote from: les on November 09, 2017, 09:31:57 AM

Quote from: dsvracer on November 09, 2017, 06:56:34 AM
i would suggest the 117. relatively inexpensive, make lots of power and is very durable, long lasting.  it has it all.  dsv

I was sort of thinking around that displacement too.  I can bore my own cases, perform Timken conversion, and install manual compression releases.  So, there is a lot I can do in my own garage.  I will need to send out for head work.  Yes, all of this is the same regardless on whether it's a 117" or a 124".

I'd like to spend around $3K - $3.5K.

Let's say I did a 124"  Would my dickhead flywheel rods be ok if I got the bottom trued and welded?  Or, would I need to drop a bunch of $$$ on an S&S flywheel assembly?

I've figured it 9 ways from Sunday and that's gonna be tough - probably have to spend at least 1-2K more depending on goals

I'll be very interested to see how this turns out - best of luck to you 

Quote from: sfmichael on January 01, 2018, 11:01:54 PM

Quote from: les on November 09, 2017, 09:31:57 AM

Quote from: dsvracer on November 09, 2017, 06:56:34 AM
i would suggest the 117. relatively inexpensive, make lots of power and is very durable, long lasting.  it has it all.  dsv

I was sort of thinking around that displacement too.  I can bore my own cases, perform Timken conversion, and install manual compression releases.  So, there is a lot I can do in my own garage.  I will need to send out for head work.  Yes, all of this is the same regardless on whether it's a 117" or a 124".

I'd like to spend around $3K - $3.5K.

Let's say I did a 124"  Would my dickhead flywheel rods be ok if I got the bottom trued and welded?  Or, would I need to drop a bunch of $$$ on an S&S flywheel assembly?

I've figured it 9 ways from Sunday and that's gonna be tough - probably have to spend at least 1-2K more depending on goals

I'll be very interested to see how this turns out - best of luck to you 

I am going to end up spending about the amount you say.  Throttle body, air filter, and clutch add additional costs.

So, it looks like I'll have to go it alone with installing the retaining screws.  Thanks for the posts anyway.

Quote from: les on January 02, 2018, 08:39:12 AM
So, it looks like I'll have to go it alone with installing the retaining screws.  Thanks for the posts anyway.

Rule of thumb for a self tapping screw is drill to match the root diameter of the thread. Measure with a caliper at the bottom of thread and you will get the size. Don't go bigger you want only the threads cutting there way in not pushing material so the shank can go in.  That's what I learnt in trade school 45 years ago.   Bob

Quote from: FXDBI on January 02, 2018, 09:35:29 AM

Quote from: les on January 02, 2018, 08:39:12 AM
So, it looks like I'll have to go it alone with installing the retaining screws.  Thanks for the posts anyway.

Rule of thumb for a self tapping screw is drill to match the root diameter of the thread. Measure with a caliper at the bottom of thread and you will get the size. Don't go bigger you want only the threads cutting there way in not pushing material so the shank can go in.  That's what I learnt in trade school 45 years ago.   Bob

Thanks, Bob.  I'll go with that.  Now the next trick is to get that hole drilled not too far and not to close to the edge of the bearing bore.

BTW, I would prefer to cut a groove and use a retaining ring.  However, I don't have that level of capability.  So, although the screws won't solve a problem with a bearing walking (which you won't know until it actually does), the screws might have a good chance at serving as a safety net in preventing terrible damage to a build that's disgustingly expensive.

If concerned with bearing "walk", freeze the bearing (in the package) and apply some Red Loctite in the Case,(or outer race) mindful not to get Loctite in the way of any oiling passages,,,

Also apply a bead of Loctite around the outer edge of seals

Always worked well for me

I'd be leery (I know many have done them successfully, I'm a puss, Murphy was an optimist ) of those 703B self tapping screws...

Quote from: les on November 09, 2017, 09:31:57 AM

Quote from: dsvracer on November 09, 2017, 06:56:34 AM
i would suggest the 117. relatively inexpensive, make lots of power and is very durable, long lasting.  it has it all.  dsv

I was sort of thinking around that displacement too.  I can bore my own cases, perform Timken conversion, and install manual compression releases.  So, there is a lot I can do in my own garage.  I will need to send out for head work.  Yes, all of this is the same regardless on whether it's a 117" or a 124".

I'd like to spend around $3K - $3.5K.


Let's say I did a 124"  Would my dickhead flywheel rods be ok if I got the bottom trued and welded?  Or, would I need to drop a bunch of $$$ on an S&S flywheel assembly?

I like to add H beam rods, weight transfer machining, and balancing when building a 117.

The holes are drilled VERY close to the bearing bore on the factory cases and are 1/4 20 thread, I would guess there is around 30 thou between the threads and the bearing bore.

Quote from: FlaHeatWave on January 02, 2018, 01:34:47 PM
If concerned with bearing "walk", freeze the bearing (in the package) and apply some Red Loctite in the Case,(or outer race) mindful not to get Loctite in the way of any oiling passages,,,

Also apply a bead of Loctite around the outer edge of seals

Always worked well for me

I'd be leery (I know many have done them successfully, I'm a puss, Murphy was an optimist ) of those 703B self tapping screws...

So, using Loctite (I would have thought green penetrating instead of red) has always been a curiosity of mine when using it on hard pressed components.  Assembly lube (or any lubricant) and Loctite don't play together well.  So, if I coat the OD of the bearing with Clevite and then try to also apply Loctite...how does that work?

Quote from: BVHOG on January 02, 2018, 04:25:30 PM
The holes are drilled VERY close to the bearing bore on the factory cases and are 1/4 20 thread, I would guess there is around 30 thou between the threads and the bearing bore.

Exactly, what concerns me.  Getting the holes too close will swell the bearing bore when the self tapping screws are installed.  If the holes are too far from the bore they will only serve as decoration because the heads won't hang over the edge of the bore.

It's been mentioned that folks have installed these screws before.  However, no one has posted any measurements, methods, or advice on doing it.  In other words, doing just right.

The pics don't show but here's another one that walked and did damage.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=87579.msg1001852#msg1001852

I just had a 117 build done on 2002 B cases. It had the holes, but no bearing retainer. They have been obsoleted, but we found one at a dealer, and was able to use it. I made a photo copy of it if you are interested. I'll have to look for it.

Quote from: CarlosGGodfrog on January 03, 2018, 09:29:41 AM
I just had a 117 build done on 2002 B cases. It had the holes, but no bearing retainer. They have been obsoleted, but we found one at a dealer, and was able to use it. I made a photo copy of it if you are interested. I'll have to look for it.

Heck yes I'm interested! 

Quote from: les on January 03, 2018, 06:26:32 AM

Quote from: FlaHeatWave on January 02, 2018, 01:34:47 PM
If concerned with bearing "walk", freeze the bearing (in the package) and apply some Red Loctite in the Case,(or outer race) mindful not to get Loctite in the way of any oiling passages,,,

Also apply a bead of Loctite around the outer edge of seals

Always worked well for me

I'd be leery (I know many have done them successfully, I'm a puss, Murphy was an optimist ) of those 703B self tapping screws...

So, using Loctite (I would have thought green penetrating instead of red) has always been a curiosity of mine when using it on hard pressed components.  Assembly lube (or any lubricant) and Loctite don't play together well.  So, if I coat the OD of the bearing with Clevite and then try to also apply Loctite...how does that work?

I have only used red or blue Loctite, no experience with any of the other colors...

Bearing in the freezer overnight, and having the Case at room temperature (or above) set up for immediate assembly is key, all "clean and dry" apply Loctite to act as lube as Bearing is installed... Bearings have always pretty much dropped right in...
   

Ok, so what you're saying is to press in the bearing dry, with the exemption of the Loctite which offers some lubrication.

The green is very thin and has penetrating properties.  The way you use it is to do the press work first to it's final placement, then apply the green and let it penetrate in.  Of course, the red and blue are applied ahead of time.  Not after, like the green.

Quote from: Barrett on January 03, 2018, 06:38:18 AM
The pics don't show but here's another one that walked and did damage.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=87579.msg1001852#msg1001852

A question about the tech forum notes in this posting.  The tech notes talk about the "case height reduced for clearance on area surrounding bearing".  Does this mean that the height the bearing bore protrudes out is not as much as the 2010?

It also talks about "a spacer available for the service tool to install the bearing to the correct height".  Any information about this spacer and what it's actually doing"?

So, I've changed my mind.  I've decided to pursue getting a snap ring groove machined into the right hand casing in the pinion bearing bore.  I don't like the idea of the bearing (if it happens to) moving out that far to the retaining screws.

Quote from: les on January 03, 2018, 12:02:27 PM
Ok, so what you're saying is to press in the bearing dry, with the exemption of the Loctite which offers some lubrication.

The green is very thin and has penetrating properties.  The way you use it is to do the press work first to it's final placement, then apply the green and let it penetrate in.  Of course, the red and blue are applied ahead of time.  Not after, like the green.

I used red because it gives a stronger bond and is more heat resistant 

Quote from: les on January 03, 2018, 01:18:23 PM
So, I've changed my mind.  I've decided to pursue getting a snap ring groove machined into the right hand casing in the pinion bearing bore.  I don't like the idea of the bearing (if it happens to) moving out that far to the retaining screws.

I'd put a circular spacer up against the bearing and have the retaining screw heads against it

The bearing retaining plate is obsolete, yes available AM, eBay, etc, BUT it's unusable unless your case has the mounting area holes for it.