HarleyTechTalk

So "auto-tune" becomes a manual process then.. Interesting sales gimmick.

The Power Vision is not a continuous closed loop, but it's a lot cheaper than the T Max. It is a pretty effective way to get a decent tune. Start with a canned map, autotune and you've got a personalized map that's pretty close.

The other option is doing a dynotune. Once you've run a dynotune, there is no closed loop either. The product of the basic or wideband autotune is a individualized map similar to that of a dynotune. Obviously, it's not as good as a good dynotune, maybe better than a bad one.
The wideband autotune is probably better than the basic autotune. A dynotune should be better than a good autotune.

It all depends how much you want to put into it and how much you want out of it.

Quote from: DYankee on December 23, 2014, 07:45:04 PM


It all depends how much you want to put into it and how much you want out of it.

Plus how mild or wild you want to do and how often you plan on changing things..

Max

Just out of curiosity because I havent s en it answered or understand....... Why would I want to stay in closed loop at any point on my map instead of setting a preferred afr in that area.  What is the benefit

Quote from: misfitJason on December 23, 2014, 08:33:38 PM
Just out of curiosity because I havent s en it answered or understand....... Why would I want to stay in closed loop at any point on my map instead of setting a preferred afr in that area.  What is the benefit

Wouldn't it be better to set things up to measure the AFR and set the AFR so that it is correct buy sampling the exhaust than just pulling a number out of a table and assuming that it was set correctly?

Max

I agree Max. Correct me if I am understanding wrong here. If I se the map afr table at 14.6 in some areas where I would want it to run closed loop it would attempt to reach a somewhat lean but good running condition afr but not necessarily always 14.6:1 in those areas

Basic answer to why closed loop is.  So the ECM can have tighter control over the fuel being delivered at that time for the conditions of that day.  Weather is not the same from day to day and fuel isn't the same from station to station.  If targeting 14:1 and the fuel of the day makes actual AFR 14.3.  I's say the safe zone was built in with targeting 14:1.  Same scenario of CLB target of 14.4.  Doesn't matter the fuel.  The ECM is going to try and maintain 14.4.

A good understanding of what it takes to have an engine run efficiently in different conditions helps a lot when deciding what, where and if closed loop should be ran.  It has it's limitations.  As does open loop, wide band tuning.

Quote from: misfitJason on December 24, 2014, 06:45:03 AM
I agree Max. Correct me if I am understanding wrong here. If I se the map afr table at 14.6 in some areas where I would want it to run closed loop it would attempt to reach a somewhat lean but good running condition afr but not necessarily always 14.6:1 in those areas

If the system is operating properly and running closed loop, it will adjust the afr best it can to achieve 14.6 afr from the sensor.. As I understand some of the tuners, the desired AFR has to be set to some afr value to run closed loop.. Is it 14.6?  Don't know.. Tmax, everything is closed loop.. Set it to 13.2. It will adjust to 13.2 in real time..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sCO4OG6BiM

Max 

Some cool new features with power vision pro tune and target tune coming in the future

Will it allow you to pick a target for WB tuning?

Quote from: hrdtail78 on December 24, 2014, 02:37:24 PM
Will it allow you to pick a target for WB tuning?

Maybe..[emoji54]

So if you tune with the AT Pro remove it and go back to the CL and NB sensors it will revert back to 14.6 ? I am about done with the WB tuning and was planning on removing it and going back to CL and the stock sensors.

The map you load into the ECM can have the target AFR of 14.6 if you like.

If you want it to be something other than 14.6 and you have developed a tune for it using the WB sensors, you load that tune and the ECM should run at that AFR. It will not be closed loop unless the target AFR is 14.6.

So when I disconnect the WB AT I might as well take out the NB's as well cause they will be disabled I thought it would automatically go back to NB and CL operation. I must have misunderstood what Jamie at Fuel Moto had said.

Thanks

Quote from: DYankee on December 25, 2014, 06:02:58 AM
The map you load into the ECM can have the target AFR of 14.6 if you like.

If you want it to be something other than 14.6 and you have developed a tune for it using the WB sensors, you load that tune and the ECM should run at that AFR. It will not be closed loop unless the target AFR is 14.6.

This may be true with other tuners, but not with Power vision you can make your closed loop pretty much where ever you want by changing the CL parameters on your cal in Winpv.

The narrow band sensors are not capable of accurately determining AFR very far from stoichiometeric (14.6). I don't know how narrow the narrow band sensors are, but what good is running in closed loop if the sensors aren't accurate?

Kevin , did your bike come from the factory with NB O2 sensors ? If it did they need to be left in the pipe . After you remove the WB O2 sensors your map wont change , it will still operate in open loop and closed loop ( if you have any cells in your AFR table set to 14.6 ) . As an example my 06 dyna came with NB sensors . It is tuned completely open loop with TTS , my NB sensors are still in the exhaust . I would think it will throw a code or run poorly if you remove them .

Quote from: DYankee on December 25, 2014, 07:22:22 AM
The narrow band sensors are not capable of accurately determining AFR very far from stoichiometeric (14.6). I don't know how narrow the narrow band sensors are, but what good is running in closed loop if the sensors aren't accurate?

What I've learned is that NB sensors work within a range/window, you set the parameters you desire, within reason.

They will work like this, I tested this with my PV last summer after I tuned to E85, I left the wide bands in, for monitoring only and set the CL window between 13.8 and 14.2, I watched this in real time, the NB were doing their job holding the target afr within the range I set., target afr was 14.0.

If you have a Power vision, try it, it does work. Just have to make sure the NB's are properly placed in the pipe.

Daren

It is not a good idea to map VE's with one sensor, and then let the ECM control with another sensor for input.

They are the stock NB's that came on the bike. I have Jackpot headers that allow both WB and NB to be installed at the same time.. They are in the same location as on the stock pipes. 2010 Tri Glide 103".
Thanks

If u did auto tune basic using the stock NB sensors it should dial in any CL cells in your AFR table . Then when you did auto tune pro with the WB it should of dialed in any OL cells . Removing the WB sensors wont change anything as long as you have flashed your most current tune to the ECM . Leaving the stock NB sensors in will allow them to monitor the areas of your map that were tuned basic . Leave the factory NB sensors in

Quote from: Durwood on December 25, 2014, 06:31:25 AM
This may be true with other tuners, but not with Power vision you can make your closed loop pretty much where ever you want by changing the CL parameters on your cal in Winpv.

Uh, no.

A 14.6 in the table tells the Delphi ECM to run closed loop. The Powervision doesn't change that.

When you change the closed loop bias, you skew the sensor's response. In other words, it may now start signalling Stoic when it's actually at some other place. But you still need a 14.6 in the table cell to run closed loop. That's how the Delphi ECM works.

So I should tune basic first then pro or the other way around or does it matter which is first ??

Thanks

Quote from: aswracing on December 25, 2014, 09:42:43 AM

Quote from: Durwood on December 25, 2014, 06:31:25 AM
This may be true with other tuners, but not with Power vision you can make your closed loop pretty much where ever you want by changing the CL parameters on your cal in Winpv.

Uh, no.

A 14.6 in the table tells the Delphi ECM to run closed loop. The Powervision doesn't change that.

When you change the closed loop bias, you skew the sensor's response. In other words, it may now start signalling Stoic when it's actually at some other place. But you still need a 14.6 in the table cell to run closed loop. That's how the Delphi ECM works.

The later lambda cals and cals for HDLAN bikes do not have bias tables like the earlier cals.  With PV you CAN change the range that the closed loop will operate but I have found that the 14.1-15.2 range is its more accurate range.

I would do basic first then pro but i dont think it matters . Joe would be able to andwer that better than me . Im just learning all this myself Kevin