Quote from: wolf_59 on August 05, 2015, 05:33:38 PM
Andy, it would really help us if you would start a thread "scatter plots for beginners" or something of the sort, I try to read all your post and the scatter plots are fine but I'm not seeing what your talking about, all I see is "OH Pretty Picture" but what does it mean? and what should it look like? How do we get it there?
Interested in what your saying just help us understand what your saying
I have had lots of questions regarding Scatter Plots and and how do they work. Let me start with the most basic use of a scatter plot. Let's call it "Input vs Response". I like to put the thing the rider has a direct input on the X or horizontal axis.
In my first example, let's put Throttle (TPS in my case) on the horizontal axis. The response to this TPS input is the Position of the throttle blade (in the throttle body) or the resulting Response from the input.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Motec%20Throttle%20Mapping.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Motec%20Throttle%20Mapping.png)
In this example
0% TPS at the hand feed on the X (or horizontal) axis gives 0 Throttle Blade Pct on the Y or vertical axis.
100% TPS at the hand feed on the X (or horizontal) axis gives 100 Throttle Blade Pct on the Y or vertical axis.
Now look where the two white lines cross in the field.
27.77% TPS at the hand feed on the X (or horizontal) axis gives 15.60 Throttle Blade Pct on the Y or vertical axis.
The color or Z axis in this example, is the also Throttle Blade Pct just to keep things simple.
Andy
So , the color has no significance at all in this example but is there by default?
( z axis always utilizes the graded colors ? )
And this is TBW not a cable throttle
because a properly adjusted cable throttle would plot as a parabola and not a scatter graph ?
Yep, z is the color.
Yes this is a DBW. There is a curve in the SW that I can set like 15 points in the finger position and what I want the desired resulting position of the throttle blades to be.
Actually, a properly adjusted cable throttle would most likely be a slightly curved line.
In this example, the color is not real helpful. But keep in mind, the color can be the average of any other field, like Speed or average RPM. Whatever you may want to look at. Whenever you look at a scatter plot, you need to think thru what is the horizontal axis (the Input), what is the vertical axis (the Response) and what is the color representing.
Each dot represents one of thousands of samples.
This will get lots more interesting fast if you hang in there.
Andy
Here is one that is a little more interesting.
http://nbs-stl.com/motec/Motec%20Throttle%20Mapping%20to%20HP.png (http://nbs-stl.com/motec/Motec%20Throttle%20Mapping%20to%20HP.png)
The X (or the Input) is TPS or where my finger is in the throttle.
The Y (the Response) is the estimated HP based on fuel flow that I call HPEstMotec
The Z shown in color is the average RPM that the motor was at when the X and Y were at this point.
In this example, 50% throttle on the X results in about 140 HP and based on the color and looking at the right for the scale, about 6300 RPM.
Andy
Here is the same sort of plot but I am comparing a supercharged motor on the left and a turbocharged motor on the right.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Blower%20vs%20Turbo%20Power%20Delivery.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Blower%20vs%20Turbo%20Power%20Delivery.png)
The driver input on the bottom is throttle position. The Response on the vertical axis is Inlet Mass Flow (essentially HP) and in color is the Vehicle Speed in MPH.
Look how on the graph on the left, Power is very much a near 1 to 1 response thing. If your finger is here, the power is that. The turbo motor on the right is very different. 45% throttle can get you almost anything for power.
Andy
The second type scatter plot that is very common in the EFI Tuning world has the bottom axis RPM and the vertical axis MAP or Manifold Absolute Pressure. Lets consider both of these axises to be basic inputs, The third axis out in the center is the Response. In this case, these are the same axises that are used for a "lambda" calibration for the Volumetric Efficiency table. In the Harley world, it is called the air flow table front and rear as I recall.
The more logical things to have in the field could be AFR, O2 Voltage, Knock Retard, VE, Spark Advance, even a special calculated field you created like Fuel Injector Duty Cycle... Anything you may want to look at. Remember that each dot in the field represents the average of every time the motor got to that exact combination of the first two axises.
Here is an example of
X=RPM (Engine Speed is what this SW calls it)
Y=MAP (Inlet Manifold Pressure is what this SW calls it)
z- AFR (Exhaust Lambda External is what this SW calls it but I configured the SW to display data in AFR, that's just me...)
http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Motec%20Typical%20Ride%20100hz.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Motec%20Typical%20Ride%20100hz.png)
Note that if you ran the crud out of a NA Harley, the data would look very similar but the top half of the data of this screen shot would not be there. Any data in this screen shot above 100 kpa is boost. NA motors get little to no boost.
Andy
Here is a Harley that was run fairly hard. The RPM and MAP axises are flipped compared to the other plots but that is no big deal. Max MAP was 104 as reported by the PV.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/PVTune/HitsTypicalRide.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/PVTune/HitsTypicalRide.png)
On the left is Speed Density (MAP vs RPM) and on the right is Alpha-N (TPS vs RPM)
Andy
Here is a little peak at where you can roll a scatter plot into a histogram. The break points on the histogram are totally adjustable (count and value) and you can have any combination of X,Y,Z as required to create any table you want. Showing you guys this is the fundamental foundation for creating your own autotune.
This feature also gets real handy for dealing with a motor that knocks.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Scatter%20Plot%20to%20Histogram%20View.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Scatter%20Plot%20to%20Histogram%20View.png)
Andy
Interesting stuff Andy
Am I jumping the gun in asking about filters and how they work ?
Looking at your scatter plots I'm wondering if it may be more usefull to look at data gathered by separating into say
Accel , Cruise , Decell ?
Thanks
Here is the instructions for the math section of and list of math functions built into the software.
http://www.efianalytics.com/MegaLogViewerHD/formulas.html (http://www.efianalytics.com/MegaLogViewerHD/formulas.html)
You have the ability to do nested if statements to build any field or filter you want. I can give some examples of my filters if it would help you get a handle on the possibilities. Keep in mind that each filter can be applied separately. Filters like TPS moving too quickly, Engine temp out of your acceptable range.... are all easy to do.
Hope this helps.
Andy
Is this stuff starting to make sense? You guys got quiet.
Andy
Been having a bit more of a play with Megalogviewer
Can see how the filters work
I'd like to see some of those that you have found most usefull
I was looking at combining the info in DM3 files from a same day run
Can the files be combined in Megalogviewer for a single plot ?
I have been real busy but I am following along its all pretty simple so far
Still here reading and looking, still haven't got the jest of the scatter plot and what I should be looking for.
Since this is a Harley site could you post up some more Harley data showing "Bust in the tune"and what we need to do to correct it.
I use TTS will I be able to use this to help finalize my tune?
May have to try the Megalogviewer and have a look see at some of the Vtune and Spark data files I have.
Quote from: 98fxstc on August 07, 2015, 05:38:58 PM
Been having a bit more of a play with Megalogviewer
Can see how the filters work
I'd like to see some of those that you have found most usefull
I was looking at combining the info in DM3 files from a same day run
Can the files be combined in Megalogviewer for a single plot ?
Sure, simply open MLVHD, then <File> <Open> hold the control button and pick all the logs you want to open. Hit <Enter> and they all load up.
Quote from: wolf_59 on August 07, 2015, 05:59:55 PM
Still here reading and looking, still haven't got the jest of the scatter plot and what I should be looking for.
Since this is a Harley site could you post up some more Harley data showing "Bust in the tune"and what we need to do to correct it.
I use TTS will I be able to use this to help finalize my tune?
May have to try the Megalogviewer and have a look see at some of the Vtune and Spark data files I have.
What you are looking for is data that has a clear patterns but with some conditions that do not fit the pattern.
I realize but this is the sort of thing that is the holy grail that you find looking at lots of data.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Motec%20Prop%20Test.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Motec%20Prop%20Test.png)
I realize that this is not Harley related but it is really cool when you can find clear patterns in a 1/2 million records.
Andy
Ok Andy,
We're all like little kids listening to you go on about how cool these scatter graphs are and how it's so easy to make them out of just about anything you can imagine.
NOW! PLEASE! Take ONE friggin scatter graph of your choise and circle or point to where the bust you identify is in the graph and tell us what the bust is and how you see that. SIMPLE!
THEN! PLEASE! Show us the scatter graph with the fix to the bust and circle or point to where the picture changed after the bust was fixed. SIMPLE!
So please Andy just show us the value now that we know the utility.
Bells and whistles are great but we need to know why we need scatter graphs BEYOND THE PRETTY PICTURE.
THANK YOU,
Bob
:up:bob.
Bob, I simply need a big data log off a really well tuned Harley being run hard on the back roads so we can all figure out what the signature patterns for a Harley should be. From there we can look at data of one misbehaving.
All the big data logs I have are off other systems. There was a thread that Jason posted data that did do some of what you are asking. I need a log.
Andy
Must be a tuner who can tune it properly, take for ride and post up?
Or even a stock bike on a trip thru the mountains. .....
Nope! Don't need Harley data to do the following:
"NOW! PLEASE! Take ONE friggin scatter graph of your choice and circle or point to where the bust you identify is in the graph and tell us what the bust is and how you see that. SIMPLE!
THEN! PLEASE! Show us the scatter graph with the fix to the bust and circle or point to where the picture changed after the bust was fixed. SIMPLE!"
Let's stay focused on the above request....
Bob
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 08, 2015, 05:07:52 AM
Bob, I simply need a big data log off a really well tuned Harley being run hard on the back roads so we can all figure out what the signature patterns for a Harley should be. From there we can look at data of one misbehaving.
All the big data logs I have are off other systems. There was a thread that Jason posted data that did do some of what you are asking. I need a log.
Andy
Here's the problem:
1)Your asking for a log from a well tuned Harley run hard so that you can establish a pattern. Stock bike or modded? Because in a Harley, they all run different. That is part of the problem with tuning them.
2)Define big log file because I don't think your going to get what you want there either. At least not from anything short of a racer, the MOCO, or a Tuning shop/Tuning aid maker and I don't think they are going to give one up.
I just got my computer straightened out. Ready to post something up given what you asked for in another thread. But now that request has been modified. I cannot give you what you just asked for. I will say I can pick out patterns based on changes I have made in a tune and that was just using the plots provided in the graphing function of my tuning software, but it was a evolving process. You want someone to post baseline info. You should have asked for this a long time ago, right from the start. It took all this time to get to this point. I'm done. Observation time.
Andy, has the MegaSquirt hardware been packaged yet into a bolt-on plug and play system for harley yet?
Quote from: turboprop on August 08, 2015, 02:59:42 PM
Andy, has the MegaSquirt hardware been packaged yet into a bolt-on plug and play system for Harley yet?
They have no interest in building a tuning device. If Power Vision, TTS, or anyone else would want to do the effort, the other piece of software that they make could be utilized to work with any piece of interfacing hardware. Knowing and keeping up with the ever changing stock ECUs is the part MLV management want nothing to do with. Tuner Studio is good.
Andy
Andy, can I assume you cannot or will not provide us with what I requested?
Nope! Don't need Harley data to do the following:
"NOW! PLEASE! Take ONE friggin scatter graph of yNope! Don't need Harley data to do the following:
"NOW! PLEASE! Take ONE friggin scatter graph of your choice and circle or point to where the bust you identify is in the graph and tell us what the bust is and how you see that. SIMPLE!
THEN! PLEASE! Show us the scatter graph with the fix to the bust and circle or point to where the picture changed after the bust was fixed. SIMPLE!"
Bob
Andy, arent there guys out there running some form of MegaSquirt or MiniSquirt on Harleys? Did they have to encase and connectorize the stuff themselves?
I swear I have seen this stuff being used on some serious harley's at Bonneville or maybe it was Ohio.
They are running Microsquirts and those come with waterproof connectors. I think they are running full sequential spark. A few years ago, I talked the programmers into getting the MAP read to figure out the spark sequence.
Andy
Bob,
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/TTS%20Tune%2001.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/TTS%20Tune%2001.png)
The red stuff is a real mess. On the plot, everything should be real close to a straight line. Being that the the out of character part of the data, is above the straight line, it implies richer then you would expect. Al I would do at that point is hit any one point on the scatter plot and then go to the log viewer view and see what you were doing at the time.
That motor is knocking bad at the same point as you can see on the right plot. Also the red dots.
Andy
Why rpm x map? What makes that useful? Also what is the duty cycle of? Injector on time?
Since this is scatter plots for dummy could i send a log file so i can follow along at home? I could not duplicate your example since sportsters dont have a knock retard.
MAP X RPM is something I found a few years ago when testing race cars the had MAF sensors mounted for the data purposes. We found the if you created a new field that was simply the MAP times the RPM, it was almost a perfect representation of the air going into the motor.
Duty Cycle is the percentage of time the injectors are spraying. In the Harley world it tends to max out at like 50%. Way less than most motors.
Andy
That make sense then. So air flow vs fuel delivery would be a straight line provided afr was the same thought out the range. I ploted mine using hits as the Z axis. Several outliners but on both sides of the line. Do you kind of average those out and go by the trend?
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 08, 2015, 07:20:11 PM
Bob,
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/TTS%20Tune%2001.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/TTS%20Tune%2001.png)
The red stuff is a real mess. On the plot, everything should be real close to a straight line. Being that the the out of character part of the data, is above the straight line, it implies richer then you would expect. Al I would do at that point is hit any one point on the scatter plot and then go to the log viewer view and see what you were doing at the time.
That motor is knocking bad at the same point as you can see on the right plot. Also the red dots.
Andy
Ok, we have picture of a shitty running engine, right? It's richer and leaner in places with bad knocking.
You fixed these conditions, right?
Now, if you will post the same engine same graph after the bust fiix along side the before fix we have what we can plainly see in contrast.
Thanks,
Bob
Andy , your inbox is full.
must be popular :teeth:
Quote from: FLTRI on August 08, 2015, 09:39:37 PM
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 08, 2015, 07:20:11 PM
Bob,
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/TTS%20Tune%2001.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/TTS%20Tune%2001.png)
The red stuff is a real mess. On the plot, everything should be real close to a straight line. Being that the the out of character part of the data, is above the straight line, it implies richer then you would expect. Al I would do at that point is hit any one point on the scatter plot and then go to the log viewer view and see what you were doing at the time.
That motor is knocking bad at the same point as you can see on the right plot. Also the red dots.
Andy
Ok, we have picture of a shitty running engine, right? It's richer and leaner in places with bad knocking.
You fixed these conditions, right?
Now, if you will post the same engine same graph after the bust fiix along side the before fix we have what we can plainly see in contrast.
Thanks,
Bob
Jason was tuning that motor. I never saw what he did to fix it or what the plots looked like when he was done.
Here a plot from a guy that I got yesterday. The first thing I will have him do is pull 8% from the VE tables from the upper right corner of the plots. That works out to about 5250 RPM and above and 85 KPA and above. He is going to retest today, weather permitting.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Motec%20Running%20Fat%20Up%20Top.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Motec%20Running%20Fat%20Up%20Top.png)
I looked back at a previous log I had and the top end stuff looked way better... I wonder what changed? Weather, Fuel Pressure, closed loop misbehaving....
A member just sent me several TTS logs as he was on a long ride. Here is a couple of screen shots of what lots of data looks like in scatter plots. This is like 7 logs open all at the same time. This worked out to 45000 total records.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/HarleySpeedDensityVsAlphaN.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/HarleySpeedDensityVsAlphaN.png)
and
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/HarleyScatterPlots01.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/HarleyScatterPlots01.png)
The only thing that concerns me is on the MAP X RPM vs Duty Cycle1 (really front DC) gets messy up and to the right of the circle.
Andy
For people with MLV HD, here is the data I plotted above.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Lots%20of%20TTS%20Date.zip (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Lots%20of%20TTS%20Date.zip)
Open the SW and then open all of these at the same time from File Open
Have fun tuning
Just for reference and complarison, here is what data looks like coming off a dyne.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/TTS%20Tune%2001.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/TTS%20Tune%2001.png)
Thanks for the pictures Andy.
When you post a picture with a statement how on earth do we know what and where to look?
You simply tell us what we are looking at. Don't you understand it is just a picture until you share your understanding of what is broken and how the picture changes from fixing the tune.
Show us the contrast of the before and after picture, SIDE BY SIDE from fixing a tune.
I appreciate you've been studying scatter graphs for years and can see a tune bust from the next room but we, at least I, need contrast to see the pictures of bust-to-fixed graphs.
I've also spent many years looking at data (in the racing arena), including scatter graphs BUT we looked at these graphs, not for the holy grail of tuning, but for trends, which is what I feel is their true value. You feel they have a lot more value so that's why I've asked NUMEROUS times, right here on this thread, for the before fix and after fix pictures. Nothing more, nothing less!
Why won't you do it? :scratch: :scratch:
Maybe because you don't have before and after pictures? :nix: If so, they are nothing more to me but pretty pictures and I don't want to spend unlimited hours studying pictures looking for something I wouldn't see by tuning a bike without these picture graphs.
Come on Andy show us the direct comparison pictures so we can understand what you keep saying.
Bob
Andy, I too really appreciate the stuff you have been posting. Good stuff. Keep it coming.
Quote from: turboprop on August 09, 2015, 10:47:01 AM
Andy, I too really appreciate the stuff you have been posting. Good stuff. Keep it coming.
Turbo,
I assume, based on your comment, you understand what you are looking at. :up:
I realize I may be a bit slow but I'm looking for before and after pictures so I can keep up.
Maybe you can explain how tuners can effectively utilize these graphs to do better tune a bike.
I do see it as a handy tool to identify trends (as we did in, especially, endurance racing) but that's about it and I'm not seeing the advantage to actually tuning a bike. :nix:
Bob
This is the sort of thing you find when you are willing to look.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Harley_SampleFuelMap.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Harley_SampleFuelMap.png)
Interesting where in the maps this rider spends most of his time.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/HarleySpeedDensityVsAlphaN.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/HarleySpeedDensityVsAlphaN.png)
Not an expert, and I probably only understand a smidgen of this stuff compared to Andy. Not really sure these plots can be directly transfered over to a harley tuning device, ie; I see this happening so a will adjust this cell type of thing. Instead I see it as a way to see the effects of changes to the tune. And like Andy says, it pretty easy to see if something is wrong. The graphic representation of these scatter plots is for me much easier to visualize whats going on.
Perhaps if you were to collect some data on your dyno, look at it with megaviewer and then tune the bike and relook at the scatter plots, you would be able to see clearly the cause and effect in the scatter plot. Try it. What have you got to loose?
How can we use MLV to fine tune to increase hp and or torque. We always hear give it what it likes. Those with a dyno have methods and tools to measure those changes. Can i replicate with logs?
Quote from: turboprop on August 09, 2015, 11:49:41 AM
Perhaps if you were to collect some data on your dyno, look at it with megaviewer and then tune the bike and relook at the scatter plots, you would be able to see clearly the cause and effect in the scatter plot. Try it. What have you got to loose?
Turbo,
The purpose of this thread is to teach us the basics. Not the other way around. Look at the title of the threads.
After years of collecting, plotting, and studying scatter graphs I just assume it would be very easy for Andy to put 2 graphs side by side ...one before a tune bust fix, the one after that tune's bust fix.
If you would like to explain and show us some before and after scatter plots to illustrate the difference in appearances before and after tuning that would be great too. :soda:
After all, we're the students here and would like the teacher to show us what the point of these graphs/plots are as applied to tuning...which is what Andy has indicated is an invaluable tuning tool. JUST SHOW US HOW TO USE IT BESIDES TELLING US "look at this".
Bob
Never mind.
The proof is in the silky smooth power delivery and instant throttle response from any load. That is all difficult to document but you know when you get it right. I like to help people learn how to get it right.
Always remember, nobody wants your bike to run great more than you. Nobody else cares to spend the effort.
Andy
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 09, 2015, 04:00:18 PM
The proof is in the silky smooth power delivery and instant throttle response from any load. That is all difficult to document but you know when you get it right. I like to help people learn how to get it right.
Always remember, nobody wants your bike to run great more than you. Nobody else cares to spend the effort.
Andy
There are already plenty providers in the tuning space, who can put the magic touch to a tune. Since it is a paid service, they are not going to give everything away.
How do we gain from what you are trying to teach if it's all about your secret sauce.
For example. The latest scatter graph shows a big pile of hits in the rpm/map/ and tp for cruise. What does that tells us about the state of tune?
Wouldn't we get more valuable data by logging afr and viewing in a histogram view that is either map-rpm or tps-rpm.
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 09, 2015, 04:00:18 PM
The proof is in the silky smooth power delivery and instant throttle response from any load. That is all difficult to document but you know when you get it right. I like to help people learn how to get it right.
Always remember, nobody wants your bike to run great more than you. Nobody else cares to spend the effort.
Andy
Which is why we need to see what you see. Please show us. Just a before and after tune scatter plot will suffice to show us what we need. No more hype the feature, show us how to use it to become better tuners.
Or are you actually saying there is really no before and after picture to look at because it doesn't help tuning but makes brilliant plots?
Bob
HEHE. Do you want to watch screen shots as a tune dials in? I am doing a race motor right now. I normally am teaching people to tune.
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 09, 2015, 05:52:41 PM
HEHE. Do you want to watch screen shots as a tune dials in? I am doing a race motor right now. I normally am teaching people to tune.
Nope, not necessary...just the first screen shot (busted tune) then the last screen shot (after the tune is dialed in)
Is way it'll be much easier to show us the contrast. Are you actually listening to these requests?
If so you are evading the requests...hmmmm, why would you do that? Secret information only you are able to understand? HEHE
Bob
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 09, 2015, 06:52:50 AM
The only thing that concerns me is on the MAP X RPM vs Duty Cycle1 (really front DC) gets messy up and to the right of the circle.
Andy
[attach=0]
When you say gets messy
you mean a wider band (variation in values) rather than closer values along the line ?
And likely cause ?
Probably not the injector , but O2 sensor readings wandering a bit and ECM calling for different pulse widths ?
Are those two plots from a well tuned engine?
Or are they from an engine that needs tuning?
Bob
Bob See post #37
I have done a lot of DIY tuning for Start , Idle and Cruise and EGR
Think its "well tuned"
Want to get it onto a dyno to finish the job with > 80kpa
Here is the cal and data files for anyone who wants look at them in TTS
https://app.box.com/s/7ej3j7o7cttv88wzw612t4hcuxlhqs7o
https://app.box.com/s/boo0jpzmfstq6370nh3egbi56q4p8d9v
https://app.box.com/s/t35f38qtxo0vdkprf8na0qpn07tve60d
https://app.box.com/s/zwaq3ay5hbp6863w2fd1zx4qtqhvhn0f
https://app.box.com/s/bhvoj9lw2dv7thok0rwnl199vhsws0q3
https://app.box.com/s/9u05tkvo7d682rx4kqyghziysjmq97ul
https://app.box.com/s/1azkzzz22fywgqep9dpb9xhmut1urvoe
https://app.box.com/s/fu8yqfvpzz6khq8m52cetnh16dncmuaw
https://app.box.com/s/r2x1tzna56kyowc5gqb3yaqcfrv5jlht
https://app.box.com/s/s53p6316erg4mkpl2g1qsn9lpjrtsw5c
Quote from: FLTRI on August 09, 2015, 08:37:48 PM
Are those two plots from a well tuned engine?
Or are they from an engine that needs tuning?
Bob
Bob, I stated that I have concerns in the areas up and to the right of the circles. Below and to the left it is very consistent. It tuns up that the majority of that upper right area is under spirited acceleration. It appears the autotunes were having issues as the throttle is it around 15%. I personally would consider hand tuning above that point.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Harley_MAPxRPM%20vs%20DC%20and%20TPS.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Harley_MAPxRPM%20vs%20DC%20and%20TPS.png)
Andy
Thanks Andy
Hadnt picked up on the 'spirited acceleration' :teeth:
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 10, 2015, 03:55:21 AM
Quote from: FLTRI on August 09, 2015, 08:37:48 PM
Are those two plots from a well tuned engine?
Or are they from an engine that needs tuning?
Bob
Bob, I stated that I have concerns in the areas up and to the right of the circles. Below and to the left it is very consistent. It tuns up that the majority of that upper right area is under spirited acceleration. It appears the autotunes were having issues as the throttle is it around 15%. I personally would consider hand tuning above that point.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Harley_MAPxRPM%20vs%20DC%20and%20TPS.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Harley_MAPxRPM%20vs%20DC%20and%20TPS.png)
Andy
Ok, if I understand you, the tune is busted above 15% and should be manually tuned above that!
So the tune should only be left in closed loop below 15% throttle due to unreliable Autotune data? How do you determine that from these plots?
Bob
The tune is suspect above that point as there is no clear pattern in the plot.
If you are running on a dyno, at some point in the pull the motor stumbles, you get a puff of black smoke and the o2s indicate lean. At that same point in the VE map, you have a huge VE number trying to cure the "Lean" spot. What would you do? This is simply one more tool to find this sort of thing.
I simply find/locate this sort of thing with math.
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 10, 2015, 09:35:29 AM
The tune is suspect above that point as there is no clear pattern in the plot.
If you are running on a dyno, at some point in the pull the motor stumbles, you get a puff of black smoke and the o2s indicate lean. At that same point in the VE map, you have a huge VE number trying to cure the "Lean" spot. What would you do? This is simply one more tool to find this sort of thing.
I simply find/locate this sort of thing with math.
Ok, again the question, how do you see the bust is from 15% throttle up? Please point to where this is on the plot.
Also, what condition does it take for O2 sensors show lean as black smoke comes from the tailpipe? Unless, of course you are looking at no load/decel.
Maybe you can show the data to support
that statement...right after showing the before and after plots that shows bust in a tune and the fixed calibration plot so we can see what you are referring to when you make these matter-of-fact statements.
Wonder if anyone else is noticing you have once again evaded numerous requests for before and after plots.
Bob
How do we take the tune bust at 15% throttle and up and apply to the map to unbust it?
Quote from: Onthefence on August 10, 2015, 11:14:27 AM
How do we take the tune bust at 15% throttle and up and apply to the map to unbust it?
:up: Excellent question.
Bob
So I take it according to your idea, this would be an example of a "bust"? This a grocery run done this morning and its the first time I have seen it do this.
It sure is suspect. Plot Z=VE Front to see if something pops out
try Z = o2 volts Front
Try Z = throttle position
Tag the lower dots and see on the trace what you were doing to get it to happen.
Quote from: Tsani on August 10, 2015, 12:58:22 PM
So I take it according to your idea, this would be an example of a "bust"? This a grocery run done this morning and its the first time I have seen it do this.
How about sending that log to Andy for his massage of the signals and see what he creates to analyze and plot?
Then, after you follow his instructions for what to do to correct it, you can post up the log to show the new, corrected tune side by side as I requested from him numerous times?
Thanks,
Bob
I still don't see a clear path to getting VE's corrected using this scatter plot. It's pretty simple to hoover over an errant Dot and find out what MAP and RPM or TP and RPM the Dot is riding in. Now that I know that, what do I do mathematically to come up with a New VE setting in that exact spot with an expected outcome that I will herd that DOT toward the line.
Secondly, I not putting together how we know by the curve of the line that we are hitting targets to begin with. If the whole tune is junk at 80 and up. Won't the plot show a consistent line of junk?
Onthefence
I generally do not tune based on what I see in the MAPxRPM vs DutyCycle. I use that to only locate where I have concerns. Often I find bad VEs that never got hit on previous rides. What I noticed a few years ago is the closed the tune got, the better the MAPxRPM vs DutyCycle. got. Now I always look there first when I get a log from anyone. If that looks good, they very seldom have a tuning issue on the fuel side of things. The most common problem I see is people run the closed loop way too much. I fatten the motor up about .75 AFR and they are amazed how much better the motor feels.
When looking for knock issues I tend to use the RPM vs MAP and Knock Retard in the Z (Color) I normally create a filter that filters out 0 Knock. That way I can toggle on and off the normal running and find the problem cells quickly. I like to use the Control P and Control S keys to see where I was right before I got in the knock situation. Things like the knock only happens only after a long idle may show up.
Andy
I loaded the native DM3 files up, but as far as I can tell, MLVHD will not load them unless converted to CVS files first. I have tried.
That graph is a combined trace of both files together. Don't know if that makes a difference or not. It has been my understanding that you can use multiple data files made with the same cal. But I don't think that holds true. Neither of the two files displayed separately show a clear picture of the split. But done together, they do.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?action=media;sa=album;in=221 (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?action=media;sa=album;in=221)
I'm having trouble loading DM3 files as well :nix:
Files made with Datamaster, not Datamaster2, will open. So basically, the claim about opening DM3 files is not really correct. They haven't kept up with changes. Shame.
If enough people ask the guys at MLV, they may elect to do it. It is just typing as the programmers say. All sorts of interesting things may show up in the logs.
A DM3 file is a DM3 file. It says it can. They advertise it can. It can't. Shouldn't have to ask pretty please. They are making money with it, they should stay on top of it. It's the little things that tend to piss people off.
But you can export it to CVS format. Just don't forget to change the time column header. A PITA, but doable.
Have sent them an email :teeth:
Here is a motor that I am tuning. In the first shot, I have the the AFR Target tables with MAP based Speed Density on the left and TPS based Alpha-N tuning on the right. Note that this is just showing the mid-range part of the powerband. The idle/low power areas and high HP portions of the tune are just fine on Speed Density.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Motec%204D%20Tuning%20AFR%20Aim.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Motec%204D%20Tuning%20AFR%20Aim.png)
In the next view, I have the Z axis as VE or Engine Efficiency in this SW.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Motec%204D%20Tuning%20VE.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Motec%204D%20Tuning%20VE.png)
Now when you look at the AFRs in the Z axis I get this
http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Motec%204D%20Tuning%20AFR.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Motec%204D%20Tuning%20AFR.png)
Add a few filters to throw out the transitions and you get this.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Motec%204D%20Tuning%20AFR%20Static.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/motec/Motec%204D%20Tuning%20AFR%20Static.png)
Now the question is do I double the numbers of cells and take on fixing this in a huge MAP base Speed Density tuning table? Or do I go to what is known as 4D tuning and run both a Speed Density fuel table and an Alpha-N fueling table. I am not sure the SW version can do 4D tuning at this point.
Andy
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 10, 2015, 04:26:33 PM
Onthefence
I generally do not tune based on what I see in the MAPxRPM vs DutyCycle. I use that to only locate where I have concerns. Often I find bad VEs that never got hit on previous rides. What I noticed a few years ago is the closed the tune got, the better the MAPxRPM vs DutyCycle. got. Now I always look there first when I get a log from anyone. If that looks good, they very seldom have a tuning issue on the fuel side of things. The most common problem I see is people run the closed loop way too much. I fatten the motor up about .75 AFR and they are amazed how much better the motor feels.
When looking for knock issues I tend to use the RPM vs MAP and Knock Retard in the Z (Color) I normally create a filter that filters out 0 Knock. That way I can toggle on and off the normal running and find the problem cells quickly. I like to use the Control P and Control S keys to see where I was right before I got in the knock situation. Things like the knock only happens only after a long idle may show up.
Andy
So these threads are not going to gain any traction and end up making a better tune for someone?
What a waste of effort that has been put in to it.
Map x rom looks like junk science from here.... It may aid you in mixing your secret sauce, but only makrs pretty graphs for everyone else...
Enjoy !!!
You will end up with a better tune.
Quote from: FLTRI on August 10, 2015, 01:49:58 PM
How about sending that log to Andy for his massage of the signals and see what he creates to analyze and plot?
Then, after you follow his instructions for what to do to correct it, you can post up the log to show the new, corrected tune side by side as I requested from him numerous times?
Thanks,
Bob
Bob, I honestly do not see this happening. In order for me to make a requested change, I need a clear explanation of why, etc. That's not unreasonable to expect since it is my mill on the line. And there lays the problem. I think Andy is so far into his process that he cannot explain it clearly to others. Or he just doesn't want to. I don't know which. Tuning, no matter the method, is a step by step process. If you don't understand the steps, there is a hefty price to be paid. Andy wants super large files. I can ride all day long but the biggest file will not be as large as he wants. Right now, I am looking at a file 15000 records long. Not long enough. But, there were several made of that length on that day. So could easily have a combined record amount in excess of the 40000 plus holy grail. And MLVHD is supposed to be able to handle multiple data files and graph them.
And then I see an anomaly such as what I posted above. Two separate files that do not show the "event" yet show it when combined. Where did the data come from to screen that or what was done to the data to show it? A legitimate concern.
I am starting to think that a problem lies not in the data, but in the fact that it comes from multiple files combined for display and that this is the base reason for requesting one large file of x amount of records.
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 11, 2015, 05:05:16 AM
You will end up with a better tune.
How? What do the pictures tell you that you translate into actual changes to the calibration?
Still nothing to relate to other than you saying it's cool to look at.
Tell us what you did to fix the problem...if there is one. :nix:
Bob
Quote from: Tsani on August 11, 2015, 08:48:06 AM
Bob, I honestly do not see this happening. In order for me to make a requested change, I need a clear explanation of why, etc. That's not unreasonable to expect since it is my mill on the line. And there lays the problem. I think Andy is so far into his process that he cannot explain it clearly to others. Or he just doesn't want to. I don't know which. Tuning, no matter the method, is a step by step process. If you don't understand the steps, there is a hefty price to be paid. Andy wants super large files. I can ride all day long but the biggest file will not be as large as he wants. Right now, I am looking at a file 15000 records long. Not long enough. But, there were several made of that length on that day. So could easily have a combined record amount in excess of the 40000 plus holy grail. And MLVHD is supposed to be able to handle multiple data files and graph them.
That's the problem as I see it as well. Why would you want to ride around collecting huge amounts of data on a bike that is not tuned properly?
I see very little day to day use for this software, for me personally.
Keep in mind that most people do not own a $60,000 dyno or any dyno for that matter.
Quote from: harleytuner on August 11, 2015, 09:15:42 AM
Quote from: Tsani on August 11, 2015, 08:48:06 AM
Bob, I honestly do not see this happening. In order for me to make a requested change, I need a clear explanation of why, etc. That's not unreasonable to expect since it is my mill on the line. And there lays the problem. I think Andy is so far into his process that he cannot explain it clearly to others. Or he just doesn't want to. I don't know which. Tuning, no matter the method, is a step by step process. If you don't understand the steps, there is a hefty price to be paid. Andy wants super large files. I can ride all day long but the biggest file will not be as large as he wants. Right now, I am looking at a file 15000 records long. Not long enough. But, there were several made of that length on that day. So could easily have a combined record amount in excess of the 40000 plus holy grail. And MLVHD is supposed to be able to handle multiple data files and graph them.
That's the problem as I see it as well. Why would you want to ride around collecting huge amounts of data on a bike that is not tuned properly?
I see very little day to day use for this software, for me personally.
Come on, we gotta give Andy a fair chance to show us what the value of his picture plots are.
Wait, we've been asking for this info for more than a couple years now. I'm sure Andy is preparing a slideshow to show us all the direct comparisons of before and after tune bust fixes.
I think we just need to be patient. :kick: :pop: :sheep: :potstir: :missed: :soda:
Bob
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 11, 2015, 09:27:46 AM
Keep in mind that most people do not own a $60,000 dyno or any dyno for that matter.
And this invalidates our concerns how?
Without the aid of MLVHD, I street tuned my bike and the result was checked on a Dyne. The results were very close. What the dyno tune was able to do was to get the areas I could not safely do and to also smooth everything out.
Because of what I did, the dyno process was quicker than usual because I gave a good starting point.
And did I use plots?
Yes. Just not MLVHD.
What I used handled one data file at a time. Made the change, one change at a time. Didn't try to shotgun it. And I could observe what the change did and decide if the results were going the direction I needed.
Not saying the process is not useable, but possibly limited.
With tuning, the more tools you have at your disposal. the better.
Quote from: Tsani on August 11, 2015, 09:45:48 AM
... the more tools you have at your disposal. the better.
Unless you just collect tools to fill your tool box to impress your friends. :wink:
Bob
True, but I like to use my tools. Like that HD-Timing tool I have for my panhead. Friend picked it up and thought it was some fancy spark plug tool. Nope. Single fire dual ignition circuit breaker with no timing marks on the fly wheel. Tool makes the process so much easier, add tail light bulb with roach clips soldered on and the whole process takes less than 15 minutes. Heck I even made one out of a sparkplug anti oil fouling adapter that I carry in my onboard tool box.
Shame these new fangled bikes don't have a Linkert! They were so nice and simple.
But I digress...
Quote from: Tsani on August 11, 2015, 10:09:42 AM
True, but I like to use my tools. Like that HD-Timing tool I have for my panhead. Friend picked it up and thought it was some fancy spark plug tool. Nope. Single fire dual ignition circuit breaker with no timing marks on the fly wheel. Tool makes the process so much easier, add tail light bulb with roach clips soldered on and the whole process takes less than 15 minutes. Heck I even made one out of a sparkplug anti oil fouling adapter that I carry in my onboard tool box.
You were not the subject of my previous comment. Hope you knew that.
Bob
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 11, 2015, 09:27:46 AM
Keep in mind that most people do not own a $60,000 dyno or any dyno for that matter.
I'm fully aware of that. I still fail to see how this software benefits someone auto tuning Either. Most people don't want to spend hours collecting data on an un-tuned bike just to look at colorful little graphs.
Just explain how MLV helps tune a bike out of tune. You started this topic and haven't really done a decent job of explaining IMO.
I'm suspecting that you are in some way affiliated with the software company and you are trying to sell the product.
Quote from: harleytuner on August 11, 2015, 10:27:44 AM
I'm suspecting that you are in some way affiliated with the software company and you are trying to sell the product.
If not, he should get a kickback for all the hype he puts out about MLV.lol
Bob
I do get to play with some really cool beta SW and HW
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 11, 2015, 11:24:21 AM
I do get to play with some really cool beta SW and HW
Key word "play" :wink:
Bob
Quote from: FLTRI on August 11, 2015, 10:37:37 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 11, 2015, 10:27:44 AM
I'm suspecting that you are in some way affiliated with the software company and you are trying to sell the product.
If not, he should get a kickback for all the hype he puts out about MLV.lol
Bob
Same could be said about you and TTS.
Who says he doesn't? :hyst:
Plenty of benefits to working closely with a company. Sometimes it is just the latest and greatest before anybody else, and sometimes a price can't be put on it. It isn't about money and retirement plans for eveybody.
Anybody want to talk about IAC Warmup Analyzer yet? :pop:
Quote from: hrdtail78 on August 11, 2015, 04:56:09 PM
Anybody want to talk about IAC Warmup Analyzer yet? :pop:
Whats the issue with the IAC
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 11, 2015, 05:10:02 PM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on August 11, 2015, 04:56:09 PM
Anybody want to talk about IAC Warmup Analyzer yet? :pop:
Whats the issue with the IAC
Sorry Andy. Just bringing up a new feature in TTS as an example.
MLV does that in the MegaSquirt World.
Quote from: hrdtail78 on August 11, 2015, 04:56:09 PM
Anybody want to talk about IAC Warmup Analyzer yet? :pop:
Sneaky. I last checked for updates yesterday. :up:
Quote from: turboprop on August 11, 2015, 04:20:02 PM
Quote from: FLTRI on August 11, 2015, 10:37:37 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 11, 2015, 10:27:44 AM
I'm suspecting that you are in some way affiliated with the software company and you are trying to sell the product.
If not, he should get a kickback for all the hype he puts out about MLV.lol
Bob
Same could be said about you and TTS.
Ok, I'll cop to it. I got a black tuner for my 03RG a few years ago and Steve sent me a fairly new Magneti Marelli EVO intake he had laying around for my 98RG. He has never offered me money or product for good reviews of his products.
He is my friend partly because we come from a racing background and we think alike about performance mods. We also learn from each other so we have a mutual relationship.
He also came to see me when I was all busted up and confined to my recliner after my 2011 crash. He even stayed overnight and that was a nice thing for him to do. A true friend.
Hope this clears up any suspicion of my affiliation to TTS.
I rave about his product because it's the best and just gets better almost weekly. He spends most of his time on the dyno finding ways to make his products work better.
Can he be a dickweed? Yes and so can I. Type A personalities, what can I say? Lol
Bob
Bob
Quote from: Tsani on August 11, 2015, 07:39:00 PM
Quote from: hrdtail78 on August 11, 2015, 04:56:09 PM
Anybody want to talk about IAC Warmup Analyzer yet? :pop:
Sneaky. I last checked for updates yesterday. :up:
So did I, onto it now though
Here is a timing map off a Toyota truck. Same sort of operating range as a Harley.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Toyota%20Timing%20Map.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Toyota%20Timing%20Map.png)
Keep in mind that Mass Air Flow is almost identical to MAPxRPM and you guys have MAP and RPM available to you in the Harley world. In the Toyota world Engine Load is MAP
Point is..... all this stuff has patterns. A happy motor give a happy rider. You guys have the tools now to see all this and the patterns in living color.
Have fun tuning
Andy
Quote from: hrdtail78
Anybody want to talk about IAC Warmup Analyzer yet? :pop:
/quote]
Lets. Start a thread on it. There is nothing in the documentation about it.
Quote from: hrdtail78 on August 11, 2015, 04:56:09 PM
Anybody want to talk about IAC Warmup Analyzer yet? :pop:
Been doing the beta testing on that feature!
Bob
Here is how MAPxRPM compares to a factory Toyota MAF
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Toyota%20MAPxRPM%20vs%20MAF.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Toyota%20MAPxRPM%20vs%20MAF.png)
And to think, that is 2 samples per sec. over CAN.
It is all just math.
Andy
Here is a fun plot. On the left is the percent of the fuel coming from the front injector based on the reported Pulse Width front and rear
on the right is what the percentages would have been on a pure speed density system based on the VE Tables Front and Rear and the MAP, RPM, Desired AFR and VE
These plots should have been essentially identical. They are in the same scale. Color is just for reference for the two plots.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/PCT%20Fuel%20Front%20Per%20VE%20Table%20and%20BPW.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/PCT%20Fuel%20Front%20Per%20VE%20Table%20and%20BPW.png)
Andy
That should clearly show you and everyone else your missing something in your math or scatter plots! Kind of the same deal as Tsani plotting two recordings and they are find yet when he lets MLV view plot them together the results are different. Clear as a bell that something is going wrong when it combines them!
OK. Does the BPW include the injector dead time?
Since you are leading everyone to believe that you know the system, why would you be asking me that? Look, you need to get out and do the work before you try and teach everyone else how to do it. Understanding the system you are working with has to come first! If you do not do that then quit trying to teach people things that you do not know.
Tsani's issue has nothing at all to do with BPW or dead time, so what are you doing to resolve his issue where MLV plots each recording fine, yet once he allows it to combine recordings it shows different things that either single previous plotting of the exact same data does. That's a issue in MLV and needs to be looked into before anything else.
I will take that as an "I don't know" Has anyone scoped the injector signal and compared the dwell time at the scope to the PW in the logs?
Andy
This topic needs to die
Andy you still have yet to show a bust in tune and fix of said bust. Mlv seems to make pretty little pictures and that is it.
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 13, 2015, 05:05:27 PM
I will take that as an "I don't know" Has anyone scoped the injector signal and compared the dwell time at the scope to the PW in the logs?
Andy
Same old Andy! After 4 years of trying to get you to really go look at the HD system you still refuse, maybe others are now seeing it too and that is why YOU refuse to answer any direct questions. To those of you watching/reading and following what he says it will get you into trouble and it's clear that MLV has some issues that need to be solved.
Tsani
I think if you took Andy out of the picture and went to the people at MLV with the data to show the issues they would jump in and try to solve it but Andy is only going to muddy the waters.
Steve,
After putting hours and hours of data thru MLV, that was the first time that happened.
The data collected has been from a on going tune tweek, small changes.
That was an anomaly. But I am pretty sure its not the data.
There was a recent update to MLV.
Combine that with what showed, I don't trust it.
I think I will just stick with what I know works.
As I said, I can use the graphing in Datamaster to show me the trends.
I was willing to give this a fair look but it keeps going in circles and questions don't get answered
unless you want to consider a unlabeled graph a answer.
And BTW Andy, that Toyota truck is not even close to the operating parameters of a HD big twin.
I am officially done with this mess.
It as been quite some time since I have seen a basic code bust in MLV. If you really found one, submit the data and a screen shot of the evidence and the guys at MLV normally jump on that sort of thing real quick.
Abnormalities and the root cause are chased down rather quick.
Andy
I think I am catching onto this MAP x RPM and finding busted tunes. I believe this one is really jacked up.
Quote from: Steve Cole on August 13, 2015, 06:13:27 PM
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 13, 2015, 05:05:27 PM
I will take that as an "I don't know" Has anyone scoped the injector signal and compared the dwell time at the scope to the PW in the logs?
Andy
Same old Andy! After 4 years of trying to get you to really go look at the HD system you still refuse, maybe others are now seeing it too and that is why YOU refuse to answer any direct questions. To those of you watching/reading and following what he says it will get you into trouble and it's clear that MLV has some issues that need to be solved.
Tsani
I think if you took Andy out of the picture and went to the people at MLV with the data to show the issues they would jump in and try to solve it but Andy is only going to muddy the waters.
Heck, even I don't know most of what you guys are talking about most of the time I even I have figured out Andy likes to post pretty pictures and talk tech terminology B.S. with no real information!
I just like reading the threads to see if he will post anything we can really use!
Andy reminds me of a guy years ago from a ATV forum that could recite terminology about building engines, turbo charging, tuning, the whole deal. Then he actually raced jetski in the World Finals on Lake Havasu and bragged about coming 15th place, racing against riders with much more racing experience. Then the whole thing fell in on him. Someone started piecing information together on him and finally tracked him down to his beater truck and trashed out trailer house. Then someone else happened to be at the World Finals and yes, he finished 15th place, dead last, 2-3 laps down. The only other rider that placed farther down was a DNF.
I gotta wonder if this is the same person?? :wtf:
Quote from: PoorUB on August 15, 2015, 02:48:55 PMThen he actually raced jetski in the World Finals on Lake Havasu and bragged about coming 15th place, racing against riders with much more racing experience. Then the whole thing fell in on him. Someone started piecing information together on him and finally tracked him down to his beater truck and trashed out trailer house. Then someone else happened to be at the World Finals and yes, he finished 15th place, dead last, 2-3 laps down. The only other rider that placed farther down was a DNF.
OT, but I would think just getting to the world finals would be a huge achievement, or do they let anyone into the world finals?
Quote from: ToBeFrank on August 17, 2015, 03:56:50 PMOT, but I would think just getting to the world finals would be a huge achievement, or do they let anyone into the world finals?
I think they would let anyone that showed up race.
We like to use as many tools and resources available when tuning and scatter plots are far more than just pretty pictures. Using a scatter plot histogram can work really well if you know what you are looking at, it allows you to take a look at the big picture before playing back the log, searching for an issue blindly or having to look frame by frame. A cool feature in MLV if you see an area or cell in the scatter histogram but would like to view it in the chart you can click on a cell in scatter and you can switch screens and go directly to this frame on strip chart and work from there. You can also search/jump to min/max values or use search query's such as greater than/less than or a specific value.
Here is one example where a scatter plot histogram allowed you to very quickly diagnose an issue for a customer remotely. Note front & rear closed loop integrator was chasing its tail badly, swinging sharply from 20% lean to 20% rich. This is a sign the O2 sensors mixed up front to rear. This could then be verified by referring to the strip chart, the CL multipliers were applying corrections inversely.
(http://s8.postimg.org/vqmi4htj9/O2swapped.png)
Here is a histogram after the sensors were switched, see any difference?
(http://s22.postimg.org/d6uffu1lt/O2fixed.png)
Quote from: Onthefence on August 15, 2015, 02:40:56 PM
I think I am catching onto this MAP x RPM and finding busted tunes. I believe this one is really jacked up.
That's hilarious! So that dude there is Jack?
Jamie
Thank you Thank you and Thank you.
Quote from: Jamie Long on August 18, 2015, 12:51:39 PM
We like to use as many tools and resources available when tuning and scatter plots are far more than just pretty pictures. Using a scatter plot histogram can work really well if you know what you are looking at, it allows you to take a look at the big picture before playing back the log, searching for an issue blindly or having to look frame by frame. A cool feature in MLV if you see an area or cell in the scatter histogram but would like to view it in the chart you can click on a cell in scatter and you can switch screens and go directly to this frame on strip chart and work from there. You can also search/jump to min/max values or use search query's such as greater than/less than or a specific value.
Here is one example where a scatter plot histogram allowed you to very quickly diagnose an issue for a customer remotely. Note front & rear closed loop integrator was chasing its tail badly, swinging sharply from 20% lean to 20% rich. This is a sign the O2 sensors mixed up front to rear. This could then be verified by referring to the strip chart, the CL multipliers were applying corrections inversely.
(http://s8.postimg.org/vqmi4htj9/O2swapped.png)
Here is a histogram after the sensors were switched, see any difference?
(http://s22.postimg.org/d6uffu1lt/O2fixed.png)
Thanks Jamie,
You did in one post what Andy couldn't do in hundreds of posts! Lol
Bob
Here is the same data from the above scatter plot histogram displayed as a strip chart and zoomed in to a problem area.
In these examples the bike is under mild accelleration in both frames. Look at the difference between these charts, first chart is with the O2's mixed up the second with them corrected. The first thing that stands out is CLI, you can clearly see in first chart that CLI is driven inversley proportional. You can also note this same effect with the front & rear injector PW as well. Note how stable these values are in the second chart.
O2 sensors mixed up
(http://s4.postimg.org/64riq33ml/strip_O2swapped.png)
O2 sensors correct
(http://s29.postimg.org/vd1o0rrhz/strip_O2fixed.png)
This stuff makes A LOT more sense with a bit of explaining.
Thanks Andy oh wait thanks Jamie.
Thanks Jamie
Andy Look Jamie a guy that does not even sell MLV just jumped in and Explained for us what we have been asking you for 4 years to show us. Where did you go Andy ? Why couldn't you just get down to the meat and taters like we ALL kept asking and asking and asking.
Well , as a learner tuner DIY person, I read all my PV data logs on MLVHD , a bit like the second lot of graphs Jamie posted.
It's great. Reasonably Easy to read and adjustable to your requirements. ( color, subject matter, time frames )
And INEXPENSIVE.
I very seldom (if ever) get before and after logs off the same Harley. With most people that contact me, I do one TeamViewer session to set them up and never hear from them again, let alone ever see a big sample log off the finished tune.
Jamie told me that he has very few matching before and after samples.
Andy
Quote from: whittlebeast on August 19, 2015, 06:41:13 AM
I very seldom (if ever) get before and after logs off the same Harley. With most people that contact me, I do one TeamViewer session to set them up and never hear from them again, let alone ever see a big sample log off the finished tune.
Andy
Why couldn't you bring yourself to admit to us you only had broken tune data and no follow up (post bust fix) data to show us?
This also brings up the question: Were you always able to fix a tune bust the first shot at it?
Bob
Quote from: Wallaby Bob on August 19, 2015, 06:41:00 AM
Well , as a learner tuner DIY person, I read all my PV data logs on MLVHD , a bit like the second lot of graphs Jamie posted.
It's great. Reasonably Easy to read and adjustable to your requirements. ( color, subject matter, time frames )
And INEXPENSIVE.
Might be OK for PV but at present wont load the the latest DM3 files (as stated on the site) without converting to csv files
Will be looked at , but not there yet
Bob, I never claimed to be a "Pro Harley Specific Tuner" I help people realize that motors are a very predictable air flow device and I help them find the patterns. I got a log from a guy yesterday trying to turbo a sporty. It is rather apparent that he is up against a tough project. His "Pro Tuner" apparently gave up so he contacted me.
I said all along that I would love to see a log off a well tuned Harley. I would love to take a look at the data coming off the CAN bikes. The only one I have is a tune that is a total mess. It turns out that the o2s were swapped and ran the tune into a mess.
Andy
don't understand why you can't get a log from a well tuned bike,
Simply to show people how all well tuned motors have patterns, here is a motor pulling a load for 3 hours of data at a 2 samples per sec data rate.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Honda%20Tuning%20Logic.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Honda%20Tuning%20Logic.png)
On this motor, Mass Air Flow Rate is essentially the same as MAPxRPM.
Fuel Flow Rate Per Hour is essentially Duty Cycle.
Engine load is MAP
The three distinct lines that developed on the left plot is the VVT setting in and a Harley would not have that. Still it is a very clear pattern in the scatter plot.
The color on both plots is Air Fuel Ratio Commanded or Target Lambda on both plots.
All we need is a big log off a well tuned Harley and I can do the same thing for here.
Have fun tuning.
Andy
Quote from: Mirrmu on August 19, 2015, 10:52:24 PM
don't understand why you can't get a log from a well tuned bike,
Think about that for a while and it will come to you why. A log is a direct representation of someones work.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on August 20, 2015, 07:03:26 AM
Quote from: Mirrmu on August 19, 2015, 10:52:24 PM
don't understand why you can't get a log from a well tuned bike,
Think about that for a while and it will come to you why. A log is a direct representation of someones work.
Ron
First you will need to find a well tuned bike, then post the log here and have everyone else rip the tune to pieces! :banghead:
I offered to do that but you blew it. You failed to agree to a set of observation controls. You failed to respond by clearly explaining what you were posting. Yet someone else actually did in one post what you have yet to do. In doing things your way, you have failed to establish a level of trust needed between a teacher and a learner. We all know there are patterns to be shown and some of us have been using that to our advantage long before you started posting here. After all this time here and elsewhere, it is hard to believe you have not seen a file off a well tuned Harley big twin. In my opinion it is due to the fact that Mlvhd isn't or cant be used as the sole tool to tune a Harley especially when you consider we do not have all the high dollar ECMs and sensors added on like your racing buds. Scatter plots are an aid, not a means to an end. No more, no less. And you still fail to clearly explain what you post. You make a lot of claims but have proved nothing. Even if you used your Toyota truck example and clearly explained it with before and after plots would have been helpful. But you didn't. As a matter of fact, I don't think I have seen you post a set of plots side by side of before and after, much less during, using the same x y z criteria. Then you have what Ron just said and you can add to it that it is not likely to happen with the level of distrust that has been built.
Here are two shots of a well tuned Harley motor.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Fairly%20Well%20Tuned%20Harley.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Fairly%20Well%20Tuned%20Harley.png)
vs one with a tune in trouble
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Scrambled%20Tuned%20Harley.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Scrambled%20Tuned%20Harley.png)
Andy
Andy
What changes would you make to the tune on motor two so it performs more like motor one?
The scrambled one turned out to be reversed 02 sensors and the tune was chasing itself.
Quote from: PoorUB on August 20, 2015, 07:29:16 AM
Quote from: rbabos on August 20, 2015, 07:03:26 AM
Quote from: Mirrmu on August 19, 2015, 10:52:24 PM
don't understand why you can't get a log from a well tuned bike,
Think about that for a while and it will come to you why. A log is a direct representation of someones work.
Ron
First you will need to find a well tuned bike, then post the log here and have everyone else rip the tune to pieces! :banghead:
happens with every other thread, we are talking about a log not a tune file
Quote from: Mirrmu on August 20, 2015, 03:59:32 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on August 20, 2015, 07:29:16 AM
Quote from: rbabos on August 20, 2015, 07:03:26 AM
Quote from: Mirrmu on August 19, 2015, 10:52:24 PM
don't understand why you can't get a log from a well tuned bike,
Think about that for a while and it will come to you why. A log is a direct representation of someones work.
Ron
First you will need to find a well tuned bike, then post the log here and have everyone else rip the tune to pieces! :banghead:
happens with every other thread, we are talking about a log not a tune file
My point was is everyone is looking for a log file for a well tuned bike, but around here "well tuned" turns into a bunch of differing opinions.
Here is a set of screen shots I put together for MLV HD. If you unzip them into a folder, you can then view them in sequential order.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/c1vn27jhj8ytbjn/MLV%20HD%20Demo%2011.zip?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/c1vn27jhj8ytbjn/MLV%20HD%20Demo%2011.zip?dl=0)
I will be doing a demo at the Megasquirt meet in about a month.
http://megameet2015.com/ (http://megameet2015.com/)
Andy
Here is a version that is a little easier to view.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/MLVHD%20Demo.pdf (http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/MLVHD%20Demo.pdf)
Feel free to ask any questions.
Andy
I thought this pretty picture post died once questions never got answered. Are you ready to show us a bust in tune and the fix of the bust ?
Nick
A dyno does not tell you why a motor has a huge dip in the torque curve. It simply documents that there is a dip.
This software does the same thing. It simply helps you locate the issue. The big difference is, you don't need the $60,000 dyno.
You would be shocked at the number of people that thank me off line as they are apparently too intimidated to post publicly.
Have fun tuning with whatever tools you want to learn.
Andy
Nobody is trying to intimidate you Andy. You just don't answer the questions. You do a little side shuffle or ignore the question, or answer the question with a example that is not relevant. And you have given your share of whiney snotty shots as well. What ever your doing off the forum is not the same as what you are doing on this forum. As for the dyno bit, a lot of us can't afford the Motec crap either along with all the sensors needed etc that your racer buddies are using. And until very recently, none of us had a water cooled engine and really still don't. You know, like that Toyota truck that you claim is like a Harley engine. NOT, by the way. But the biggest thing is:
While most of us agree that graphically displayed data is helpful, you have yet to give one supported before and after, clearly explained example based on a Harley Davidson Big Twin even after having been asked for it many times over.
And that my friend says volumes.
And we won't even get into the idea that there may be a flaw in MLVHD.
It is interesting how few people in the Harley world are willing to post real world data. I don't own a CAN Harley.
Andy
Andy, where are you located? I am in NC and have a couple extra bikes I could loan you for a few months.
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 08, 2015, 01:54:28 PM
It is interesting how few people in the Harley world are willing to post real world data. I don't own a CAN Harley.
Andy
I don't own a Can Buss Harley either. J1850 was offered. Real easy to blame the "Harley World". You couldn't/wouldn't even explain clearly what you did post.
Turbo
Join us at the Megasquirt Meet next month.
http://megameet2015.com/ (http://megameet2015.com/)
I get there Thursday night and stay thru most of Sunday. Most everything happens Saturday. The people that attend are amazing. They are all simply addicted to tuning. The programmers and board designers are also available to answer anything. Last year, we were doing tuning demos with a 1200 HP Supra.
Bruce is doing a session on how wide bands really work.
Andy
We already know how broadband sensor systems "really work" so no need to get that "talk" reported on...
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 08, 2015, 07:28:42 PM
Turbo
Join us at the Megasquirt Meet next month.
http://megameet2015.com/ (http://megameet2015.com/)
I get there Thursday night and stay thru most of Sunday. Most everything happens Saturday. The people that attend are amazing. They are all simply addicted to tuning. The programmers and board designers are also available to answer anything. Last year, we were doing tuning demos with a 1200 HP Supra.
Bruce is doing a session on how wide bands really work.
Andy
I was planning on attending, unfortunately another event popped up that has trump.
Quote from: glens on September 08, 2015, 11:45:30 PM
We already know how broadband sensor systems "really work" so no need to get that "talk" reported on...
So you know everything about WB sensors and there is nothing else to learn?
Not speak for Glens
There is always plenty to be learned BUT there are things that you or I cannot change as well. The Bosch LSU4.x sensor has limits and there is not a damn thing you or I can do about it and the marketing types have tried to twist that around 10 ways from Sunday! "How it really works" is pure BS marketing hype, basic function of the sensor itself cannot be changed and that is well spelled out by Bosch. MegaSquirt doesn't hold a candle to Bosch and no one needs to learn that from anyone other than reading the Bosch specification sheets!
How can you make a claim like that when "Megasquirt" does not even make a board to control a wideband?
Bruce at Megasquirt is a tech support guy to the OEMs for embedded code and micro processors in his day job. He may have recently retired and gone full time Megasquirt at this point.... Al at Megasquirt was a "star wars" embedded code programmer for the military or however that happens. He can't talk about it much.
Andy
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 09, 2015, 08:57:06 AM
How can you make a claim like that when "Megasquirt" does not even make a board to control a wideband?
Andy
Show us WHERE the above quote comes from? It's not in any post I can find in this thread or is it you just trying to change the topic/subject again? As to a retired tech support guy and a "star wars" guy, so what, they still have no HD engine experience and until recently no wide band control experience.
Here is why I elect to use PowerVision and MLVHD to see what is going on with a tune. This is a big log that was collected using a PowerVision.
On the left is the scatter plot of the motor and on the right is the histogram of the same data. When this plot is all near 100, The VE settings are close and it is time to bring on the fuel using the AFR Target table.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/100%20Scatter%20vs%20Histogram.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/100%20Scatter%20vs%20Histogram.png)
Have fun tuning
Andy
Please stay on topic. Thanks
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/11/4e83f771c7dc9d88517583477d41847f.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/11/232439daa92810b6251e6928068c8988.jpg)
What would you say about this Andy?
Change the scale on AFF to like Min of 95 and Max of 105
Andy
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 11, 2015, 09:00:32 AM
Change the scale on AFF to like Min of 95 and Max of 105
Andy
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/11/cd77a65f9a9d652d397c0bc18a8237c3.jpg)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xbtg0dopw3xqaac/BAD%20TUNE%202.png?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/xbtg0dopw3xqaac/BAD%20TUNE%202.png?dl=0)
Same log
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ie3bts7t5sge86v/BAD%20TUNE%203.png?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ie3bts7t5sge86v/BAD%20TUNE%203.png?dl=0)
Sorry had to post links because the colors were coming out weird.
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 11, 2015, 09:00:32 AM
Change the scale on AFF to like Min of 95 and Max of 105
Andy
Wouldn't that just filter out anything that was lower than 95 and higher than 105? That is the problem with screen shots. We can make it look like what we want to and then say. Look, it is all with in 5% of 100.
It really doesn't filter it out, it makes things out of the range bright red or deep blue.
Setting the limits really high like 0 to 200 makes everything green. Pick your poison.....
I like to set the limits to get a reasonable range of color. It all depends on what I am looking for.
Andy
I set the range narrower as well but they need to fix the program so it doesn't change my scaling every time I load a new log file.
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 11, 2015, 09:38:31 AM
It really doesn't filter it out, it makes things out of the range bright red or deep blue.
Setting the limits really high like 0 to 200 makes everything green. Pick your poison.....
I like to set the limits to get a reasonable range of color. It all depends on what I am looking for.
Andy
There has to be a happy medium. Usually you want the scale big enough to fit all data points in but not so big every thing in the range is one color. IE: If 85 is the lowest number. It needs to be scaled to 82.
Quote from: Coyote on September 11, 2015, 11:29:17 AM
I set the range narrower as well but they need to fix the program so it doesn't change my scaling every time I load a new log file.
To set & save the scaling defaults to your liking in the drop down menu go to Calulated Fields> Fixed Field min & max> select the appropriate channel> select Edit min/max and you can personalize your defaults, otherwise they will be automatically scaled.
Quote from: Jamie Long on September 11, 2015, 11:54:33 AM
Quote from: Coyote on September 11, 2015, 11:29:17 AM
I set the range narrower as well but they need to fix the program so it doesn't change my scaling every time I load a new log file.
To set & save the scaling defaults to your liking in the drop down menu go to Calulated Fields> Fixed Field min & max> select the appropriate channel> select Edit min/max and you can personalize your defaults, otherwise they will be automatically scaled.
Talking about MLV, right? I'll take a look. Thks
added, that worked. Thanks for the help. :up:
Jamie thanks for sharing useful knowledge.
Seems as though MLVHD is good tool once I have a few tips.
Did you guys realize, you can export your settings and you can also export your filters and share them with a friend? I bet that eventually, you guys will come up with a standard way to look at TTS or Power Vision data.
I think Jamie at FuelMotoUSA is coming up with a standard set of settings he likes to allow his customers a cheap way to look at the same thing he is looking at. That way his customers can quickly find tuning issues and get hints where to look to home in any tune.
The more people share knowledge, the cooler this stuff gets.
Andy
Help me pull this chart up. I can only get it up on my 2-1 that has a touch screen. I swipe that area and it pops up. I can't get it on my desktop. It also seems like it is the average of the whole run or just where the pointer is.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/13/f892ebd7bf4598002caf931111ed909b.jpg)
Using a mouse, left mouse click somewhere on your trace and drag the mouse to the right. The data is the average all data between the vertical lines.
Andy
I got it. I was trying that and I guess I wasn't holding my lip right. That actaull is easier and shows you what it is averaging. Thanks.
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 12, 2015, 02:58:05 PM
Did you guys realize, you can export your settings and you can also export your filters and share them with a friend? I bet that eventually, you guys will come up with a standard way to look at TTS or Power Vision data.
I think Jamie at FuelMotoUSA is coming up with a standard set of settings he likes to allow his customers a cheap way to look at the same thing he is looking at. That way his customers can quickly find tuning issues and get hints where to look to home in any tune.
The more people share knowledge, the cooler this stuff gets.
Andy
Seems quite a few powervision users are starting to see the benefits of MLV to assist with the bigger picture
TTS users are resricted by failure of the software to deal with native DM3 files from MT9 cals
Quote from: 98fxstc on September 13, 2015, 06:38:16 PM
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 12, 2015, 02:58:05 PM
Did you guys realize, you can export your settings and you can also export your filters and share them with a friend? I bet that eventually, you guys will come up with a standard way to look at TTS or Power Vision data.
I think Jamie at FuelMotoUSA is coming up with a standard set of settings he likes to allow his customers a cheap way to look at the same thing he is looking at. That way his customers can quickly find tuning issues and get hints where to look to home in any tune.
The more people share knowledge, the cooler this stuff gets.
Andy
Seems quite a few powervision users are starting to see the benefits of MLV to assist with the bigger picture
TTS users are resricted by failure of the software to deal with native DM3 files from MT9 cals
:up: I bought MLVHD last week. Andy was kind enough to spend time with me this weekend showing me how to use MLV to analyze the PV logs from one of my bikes. Very neat stuff you can do and see with it. The man knows his stuff.
Quote from: 98fxstc on September 13, 2015, 06:38:16 PM
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 12, 2015, 02:58:05 PM
Did you guys realize, you can export your settings and you can also export your filters and share them with a friend? I bet that eventually, you guys will come up with a standard way to look at TTS or Power Vision data.
I think Jamie at FuelMotoUSA is coming up with a standard set of settings he likes to allow his customers a cheap way to look at the same thing he is looking at. That way his customers can quickly find tuning issues and get hints where to look to home in any tune.
The more people share knowledge, the cooler this stuff gets.
Andy
Seems quite a few powervision users are starting to see the benefits of MLV to assist with the bigger picture
TTS users are resricted by failure of the software to deal with native DM3 files from MT9 cals
TTS user here. I don't think I am having a issue with restriction of the software to use information from native DM3 files from my MT9 cal
So neat and clean.
Quote from: Tsani on September 13, 2015, 07:39:01 PM
Quote from: 98fxstc on September 13, 2015, 06:38:16 PM
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 12, 2015, 02:58:05 PM
Did you guys realize, you can export your settings and you can also export your filters and share them with a friend? I bet that eventually, you guys will come up with a standard way to look at TTS or Power Vision data.
I think Jamie at FuelMotoUSA is coming up with a standard set of settings he likes to allow his customers a cheap way to look at the same thing he is looking at. That way his customers can quickly find tuning issues and get hints where to look to home in any tune.
The more people share knowledge, the cooler this stuff gets.
Andy
Seems quite a few powervision users are starting to see the benefits of MLV to assist with the bigger picture
TTS users are resricted by failure of the software to deal with native DM3 files from MT9 cals
TTS user here. I don't think I am having a issue with restriction of the software to use information from native DM3 files from my MT9 cal
I agree. TTS has always made it easy to export data into another file format that can be easily seen in MLV. I have had it for awhile. The problem for MLV is. I don't see a huge reason to export it into any other format than Datamaster. 2D, 3D, full strip charts, live data. It might be needed with something as poor as the logger with vision on a screen smaller that my iPhone. I know. 8 is so much better. Open it up and show me before you try and convince me.
Quote from: Tsani on September 13, 2015, 07:39:01 PM
TTS user here. I don't think I am having a issue with restriction of the software to use information from native DM3 files from my MT9 cal
You can open DM3 files in MegalogViewer now ?
I love the table generator from MLV. Never even viewed recorded data on the PV itself. Always viewed it though Dyno jets software suite or MLV and now we have Power Core to view PV logs. I feel more data fields to be able to look at is always more helpful.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/13/df7f25dfc5a4bfaaf2b6dd2befd4b7c8.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/13/438622e71b532149f0de00854cc8b16f.jpg)
Same bike same tune same spot highlighted. Spot the difference with the extra data.
Quote from: 98fxstc on September 13, 2015, 08:47:56 PM
Quote from: Tsani on September 13, 2015, 07:39:01 PM
TTS user here. I don't think I am having a issue with restriction of the software to use information from native DM3 files from my MT9 cal
You can open DM3 files in MegalogViewer now ?
It may be easier to get SC improve his export utility to export everything every time including what he normally hides from you. The TTS CAN Data and data rate is really good.
Quote from: joe_lyons on September 13, 2015, 09:33:00 PM
I love the table generator from MLV. Never even viewed recorded data on the PV itself. Always viewed it though Dyno jets software suite or MLV and now we have Power Core to view PV logs. I feel more data fields to be able to look at is always more helpful.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/13/df7f25dfc5a4bfaaf2b6dd2befd4b7c8.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/13/438622e71b532149f0de00854cc8b16f.jpg)
Same bike same tune same spot highlighted. Spot the difference with the extra data.
You say more channels are better, but you are only using 4 out of the possible 6 you could have. Why have the graph so tall. Are you hiding the other items for a reason?
There are several screens shots on this thread that are from TTS tunes. MLV and TTS working together is a complete nonissue.
Forgot to mention two different recording devices, and yes I'm hiding leprechauns.
That is exactly why in the Megasquirt world, the rule is if you are asking any tuning issue questions, you must post your tune and your data log demonstrating the issue. You would be amazed how fast the guys that are good a tuning can normally spot the source of the problem.
Quote from: joe_lyons on September 13, 2015, 08:09:29 PM
So neat and clean.
Joe, if this was meant for me, Thanks.
I have nothing against products other than TTS. You just need to learn to use what you decide on. Additional aids just help.
It also helps to have a site like this one to learn from.
And Andy, if you had just followed your own little megasquirt rule, "That is exactly why in the Megasquirt world, the rule is if you are asking any tuning issue questions, you must post your tune and your data log demonstrating the issue.", things would go a lot smoother for you around here. You may be surprised at how much DIY guys do understand. I may ride, live and breath motorcycles, but I used to be a hardware/software guy for Lockheed. You just never know what your going to run across here.
Most of the plots that I plot are not Harley or it is not from a bike I am tuning. They are simply examples of the sort of things I see. Lots of them are from some tuner with a "Check out this log" type note that came with it. Normally I never hear what was done to fix the issue that the tuner found interesting.
In the case of most of my logs off my motors, they are commonly 60 to 150 meg files and are unreasonable to post. I can post one up on my server for download if you want to play with a bunch of data some time.
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 14, 2015, 07:05:15 AM
you must post your tune and your data log demonstrating the issue.
Sounds great. A box account is easy enough to post anything, any size. It won't happen by the half truth, BS guys.
Quote from: joe_lyons on September 13, 2015, 09:33:00 PM
I love the table generator from MLV. Never even viewed recorded data on the PV itself. Always viewed it though Dyno jets software suite or MLV and now we have Power Core to view PV logs. I feel more data fields to be able to look at is always more helpful.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/13/df7f25dfc5a4bfaaf2b6dd2befd4b7c8.jpg)
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/13/438622e71b532149f0de00854cc8b16f.jpg)
Same bike same tune same spot highlighted. Spot the difference with the extra data.
See all the data that is missing by choosing to show it like above. Let's really show it and try not to manipulate others by selective truth.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/14/fba31d6da7a0ed9bee01a7898b961d0f.jpg)
Nothing selective or manipulated just showing apples to apples but here you go.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/14/0a86372819033d71294cd3399c1f8792.jpg)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sw824sb4r71mgdp/log0007.csv?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/688czk5eh34cuh8/C.dm3?dl=0
Here is a scatter plot I got yesterday from a member that is requesting help with his tune. This is the first view I went to.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Harley%20Motor%20Needing%20Tuning.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Harley%20Motor%20Needing%20Tuning.png)
What is this screen shot telling us?
Andy
Need to work on VE's as they are not close 100% :nix:
Is the AFF scaled to min/max or did you set it to 95-105?
Joe
I set it to 95-105
Someone just sent me a fairly large Target Tune log. All I can say is Wow, nice job Dynojet.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Target%20Tune%20MAPxRPM%20vs%20DC.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Target%20Tune%20MAPxRPM%20vs%20DC.png)
Andy
I guess what we are suppose to assume by this screen shot is that the AFF isn't going past 5%. It is all good. My question is. How much can the STFT change before it makes a change to the LTFT? Or to really look at the bottom line. Show WBo2 front and rear compared to target lambda. I'd say that if this is holding 5% to target it is doing good.
When hand tuning, I prefer to make a max change of about 5% in any one area.
Can someone explain why AFF values are present for areas of the map that are open loop? Thks
Quote from: Coyote on September 15, 2015, 04:58:58 PM
Can someone explain why AFF values are present for areas of the map that are open loop? Thks
If they are 100, that's a starting point. Shouldn't move from there in open loop, while in closed it will. Also integrators are stuck a 100 in open as well so no change there, no change if AFF.
Ron
It's clearly report AFF values that change and are not 100 in the OL areas. :nix:
98 MAP and an AFF of 98.4%
[attach=0]
Quote from: Coyote on September 15, 2015, 04:58:58 PM
Can someone explain why AFF values are present for areas of the map that are open loop? Thks
Is this a target tune data log you posted?
Quote from: hrdtail78 on September 15, 2015, 06:02:46 PM
Quote from: Coyote on September 15, 2015, 04:58:58 PM
Can someone explain why AFF values are present for areas of the map that are open loop? Thks
Is this a target tune data log you posted?
No, just a PV log from a bike with only NBs
Quote from: Coyote on September 15, 2015, 05:30:57 PM
It's clearly report AFF values that change and are not 100 in the OL areas. :nix:
98 MAP and an AFF of 98.4%
[attach=0]
Let's say that you're close loop ends at 70 kPa. Now whatever the adaptive/AFF is @ 70 kPa will continue over to the right all away to 100 kPa. Now let's also say that you're close loop doesn't go any lower than 30 kPa , whatever the adaptive/AFF is at 30 kPa will continue over to the left.
Give or take a fraction of a percent, that is what I'm seeing looking at it plotted in a table. Thanks :up:
Quote from: Coyote on September 15, 2015, 04:58:58 PM
Can someone explain why AFF values are present for areas of the map that are open loop? Thks
AFF is adaptive long term fuel trim, this multiplier it is applied as block learn which can/will affect the open loop areas as well.
Quote from: Jamie Long on September 15, 2015, 06:53:08 PM
Quote from: Coyote on September 15, 2015, 04:58:58 PM
Can someone explain why AFF values are present for areas of the map that are open loop? Thks
AFF is adaptive long term fuel trim, this multiplier it is applied as block learn which can/will affect the open loop areas as well.
OK but how is it arriving at the value it shows for the OL areas?
Quote from: joe_lyons on September 15, 2015, 06:06:40 PM
Quote from: Coyote on September 15, 2015, 05:30:57 PM
It's clearly report AFF values that change and are not 100 in the OL areas. :nix:
98 MAP and an AFF of 98.4%
[attach=0]
Let's say that you're close loop ends at 70 kPa. Now whatever the adaptive/AFF is @ 70 kPa will continue over to the right all away to 100 kPa. Now let's also say that you're close loop doesn't go any lower than 30 kPa , whatever the adaptive/AFF is at 30 kPa will continue over to the left.
How it learns AFF all depends on how the specific parameters were written in the cal, we learned some pretty cool stuff in this regard when developing Target Tune
Quote from: Coyote on September 15, 2015, 06:57:04 PM
Quote from: Jamie Long on September 15, 2015, 06:53:08 PM
Quote from: Coyote on September 15, 2015, 04:58:58 PM
Can someone explain why AFF values are present for areas of the map that are open loop? Thks
AFF is adaptive long term fuel trim, this multiplier it is applied as block learn which can/will affect the open loop areas as well.
OK but how is it arriving at the value it shows for the OL areas?
With the help of closed loop/CLI.
Quote from: Coyote on September 15, 2015, 06:57:04 PM
Quote from: Jamie Long on September 15, 2015, 06:53:08 PM
Quote from: Coyote on September 15, 2015, 04:58:58 PM
Can someone explain why AFF values are present for areas of the map that are open loop? Thks
AFF is adaptive long term fuel trim, this multiplier it is applied as block learn which can/will affect the open loop areas as well.
OK but how is it arriving at the value it shows for the OL areas?
AFF is derived based directly on the integrator/CLI (short term fuel trim), the learn rate, specific attributes, etc.. are all items set up in the background of the calibration.
The CLIs appear to stop updating when I'm in OL which is why I ask.
CLI will only update in the closed loop area and go to 100 outside of the closed loop area. But the AFF slowly do the job of the CLI and keeps long term memory of what it had to do. AFF will continue its value to the left and to the right of the last value in closed loop but AFF does not update either while outside of the closed loop area.
Quote from: Coyote on September 15, 2015, 07:42:00 PM
The CLIs appear to stop updating when I'm in OL which is why I ask.
As Joe noted, adaptive fuel control (AFF) applies block learn over a specific region, not just a single cell. This can/will overlap into open loop areas of the tune. If your log is showing the AFF multiplier is showing a correction in an area outside of closed loop this is exactly what is going on.
Cool, thanks guys!
So, what is the size of the blocks in block learn and is there a map of the blocks so you would know what area is going to be affected by block learn?
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/rl0fgd29uum3c14/AACNDtNzMB390L5lqiSv2EMka?dl=0
Quote from: tstroud on September 16, 2015, 11:50:32 AM
So, what is the size of the blocks in block learn and is there a map of the blocks so you would know what area is going to be affected by block learn?
It is different between the different levels of calibrations and it is different depending on what tuner you are using. It's not a one answer fits all.
Do dealers typically sell the SEPST now? Does anyone have one of the logs that comes off the latest version? I see relitivly little chatter on the net about what dealers are offering their customers as tuning options. Has the EPA come down on dealers and now they have no real good options?
Andy
Alot of dealers sell it because it's a harley product. SEPST actually checks a spot in the ECM that the bike has been race tuned where all the other tuners do not. Extended warranty has started looking at this and will deny a claim for power train if it says race tuned. I'll email you some today Andy.
Here is a fun screen shot on this subject.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/100%20Scatter%20vs%20Histogram.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/100%20Scatter%20vs%20Histogram.png)
It takes a fairly bad base tune to get things to pop out at you.
Andy
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 17, 2015, 06:37:10 AM
Here is a fun screen shot on this subject.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/100%20Scatter%20vs%20Histogram.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/100%20Scatter%20vs%20Histogram.png)
It takes a fairly bad base tune to get things to pop out at you.
Andy
Don't look all that bad based on the numbers. :nix: Bet there are way worse ones out there.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on September 17, 2015, 08:32:40 AM
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 17, 2015, 06:37:10 AM
Here is a fun screen shot on this subject.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/100%20Scatter%20vs%20Histogram.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/100%20Scatter%20vs%20Histogram.png)
It takes a fairly bad base tune to get things to pop out at you.
Andy
Don't look all that bad based on the numbers. :nix: Bet there are way worse ones out there.
Ron
Oh yeah...
Could anyone share there custom fields they are using? Would like to see acceleration and deceleration enrichment. Warn up tuning strategies. Using mlv. Thanks
Quote from: 1stop on September 20, 2015, 03:27:59 PM
Could anyone share there custom fields they are using? Would like to see acceleration and deceleration enrichment. Warn up tuning strategies. Using mlv. Thanks
Try
([Speed]-[Speed-4])/([Time]-[Time-4])
Where speed has to be the exact name of speed in your log. That would wind up MPH/sec
The accel and decell fields should already be there.
Oops.. The formula I posted gives actual vehicle acceleration. Great for getting changes in torque if all other conditions are consistent.
AE DE is something different.
Andy
Ive got a question about data logging. Im currently using a twin scan logwoto ger. The twin scan two has limited data in the log. I was gave a power vision. I looked into the auto tune for it and there are a few to choose from. What is the difference in them? Im using mlv hd to veiw logs which is why i posted here.
what do you think gents, this from Deluxe 2007
Sarhan
The hump in the top right of both of the MAPxRPM vs DC appears to be a bust in the tune.
I would like to see o2v in the log to figure where the error is. Having a wideband in the log would be very helpful if that is possible.
Andy
Could somebody pase list mlv hd formulas that they use. I understand that i will need to name them as they are named with logger im using which is a twin scan. Im lost when it comes to figuring how to write the formulas. Read the instructions off of mlv hd site nut cant make sense of it. Duty cycle ft and rear,afr out of range,ect... thank you in advance!!!!
Quote from: 1stop on September 24, 2015, 07:18:22 AM
Ive got a question about data logging. Im currently using a twin scan logwoto ger. The twin scan two has limited data in the log. I was gave a power vision. I looked into the auto tune for it and there are a few to choose from. What is the difference in them? Im using mlv hd to veiw logs which is why i posted here.
Did you realize you can you can log data in one system and apply the corrections you find to whatever tuning software you want?
see http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/100%20Scatter%20vs%20Histogram.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/100%20Scatter%20vs%20Histogram.png)
On this screen shot you can see the scatter plot on the left and the matching/resulting histogram on the right. The RPM and break points can be grouped to match your tuning software break points.
Andy
Quote from: 1stop on September 24, 2015, 08:23:47 AM
Could somebody pase list mlv hd formulas that they use. I understand that i will need to name them as they are named with logger im using which is a twin scan. Im lost when it comes to figuring how to write the formulas. Read the instructions off of mlv hd site nut cant make sense of it. Duty cycle ft and rear,afr out of range,ect... thank you in advance!!!!
See http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/267%20Smoothing%20Formula.PNG (http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/267%20Smoothing%20Formula.PNG)
and the results of the formula
http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/268%20Smoothing%20Formula%20Example.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/268%20Smoothing%20Formula%20Example.png)
I think the guys at FuelMotoUSA may soon release a copy to the settings file that they typically use to view their Power Vision data.
If you post a data log so I can see what you are looking at for fields, I can try to help you out.
Here is an example how I generate MsPerEngineCycle
I define that field as [RPM]=0?1:120000/[RPM] Keep in mind that you read that as IF ? Then : Else
Then I use that field to generate Duty Cycle
and I define that as [PulseWidth]*100/[MsPerEngineCycle]
Hope this helps
Andy
This is what near perfection looks like for fueling.
Speed density on the left
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/HarleyNearFuelingPerfection.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/HarleyNearFuelingPerfection.png)
Throttle based tuning Alpha-N
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/HarleyNearFuelingPerfectionAN.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/HarleyNearFuelingPerfectionAN.png)
And Speed Density compared to Alpha-N
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/HarleyNearFuelingPerfectionVE.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/HarleyNearFuelingPerfectionVE.png)
Andy
This is what being on the edge everywhere with timing looks like. Slight knock detection almost everywhere on a big log. That is about 75 min of data. I think I would have the owner remove about a degree of timing over the entire map and see if he can feel a difference. Trying better fuel for a tank may also help him learn something about what the motor wants.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/HarleyNearIgnitionPerfection.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/HarleyNearIgnitionPerfection.png)
Have fun tuning
Andy
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 24, 2015, 06:39:50 PM
This is what near perfection looks like for fueling.
Speed density on the left
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/HarleyNearFuelingPerfection.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/HarleyNearFuelingPerfection.png)
Throttle based tuning Alpha-N
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/HarleyNearFuelingPerfectionAN.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/HarleyNearFuelingPerfectionAN.png)
And Speed Density compared to Alpha-N
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/HarleyNearFuelingPerfectionVE.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/HarleyNearFuelingPerfectionVE.png)
Andy
What transients are being filtered?
(abs([RPM] - [RPM-4]) > ([RPM] * 0.10) ) or (abs([TP] - [TP-4]) > 5 ) or (abs([MAP] - [MAP-4]) > ([MAP] * 0.15) )
Glen, here is the data that generated those plots. The guy that did that tune did everything with a Powervision on the street with stock narrow bands and a TPS based Cal.
http://www.hdforums.com/forum/ignition-tuner-ecm-fuel-injection/1072255-pv-knock-counter-is-running-but-i-can-t-hear-any-pinging.html#post14425322 (http://www.hdforums.com/forum/ignition-tuner-ecm-fuel-injection/1072255-pv-knock-counter-is-running-but-i-can-t-hear-any-pinging.html#post14425322)
Andy
Here is a screen shot showing the value of big data logs. This log happens to be right at 1 million data points.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/930%20FZ1%20MAP%20vs%20RPM.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/930%20FZ1%20MAP%20vs%20RPM.png)
Patterns on AFR busts jump right out at you.
Have fun tuning.
Andy
Here is a interesting formula for Max Allowable Injector Duty Cycle
100*((120000/[RPM])-3)/(120000/[RPM])
6000 RPM returns 85% Max DC Note 85% is considered the standard answer all over the internet. They never mention the 6000 RPM part.
12000 RPM returns 70% Max DC
15000 RPM returns 62.5% Max DC
This allows for 3 ms of injector rest time.
The guys at Motec clued me in on this one.
"6000 RPM returns 85% Max DC Note 85% is considered the standard answer all over the internet. They never mention the 6000 RPM part."
This IS the accepted standard. Are you stating this is in error?
I've always successfully used 85% as a maximum rule of thumb @ max demand. There are exceptions (short bursts) that may be allowable for street usage yet not for racing (constant high load/rpm) purposes.
Bob
Bob, "Google Injector Calculator". I have never seen one that mentions RPM and includes RPM in the calculation.
Well now you have, or can if you want to.
Goggle just gave me a whole page of em,
For example:
http://www.stealth316.com/2-calc-idc.htm (http://www.stealth316.com/2-calc-idc.htm)
or how about:
https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/calcinjpulse.html (https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/calcinjpulse.html)
:bike:
Of course, as Hardtail mentioned:
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 28, 2015, 12:55:51 PM
Bob, "Google Injector Calculator". I have never seen one that mentions RPM and includes RPM in the calculation.
Well, since it is the MAX demand that counts, it really doesn't matter what the RPMs are at max demand...just need to stay below 80% or 85% depending on who you respect for their opinion.
Bob
Tsani
I tried the RBRacing one and it does not appear to use the RPM in the calc. Once you get to a high enough RPM, you run out of time when you include the opening time, the closing time and time for the injector drivers to cool.
I first ran into this years ago when I was injecting an 8000 RPM two stroke. I had to run 80 lb injectors to support 70 HP per cylinder.
Andy
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 28, 2015, 01:32:49 PM
...Once you get to a high enough RPM, you run out of time when you include the opening time, the closing time and time for the injector drivers to cool.
Andy
Does not apply to Harley engines, right?
Bob
As long as you keep the injectors big and the RPM down, this should not be an issue. Start pushing a really big build that will pull some revs and 85% may start to be an issue.
Andy
Ignore this sort of thing doing 16000 RPM rice bike stuff and you can get burned quick at the 85% rule and typical injector calculators.
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 28, 2015, 01:52:17 PM
As long as you keep the injectors big and the RPM down, this should not be an issue. Start pushing a really big build that will pull some revs and 85% may start to be an issue.
Andy
Yep, when we come across a Harley with 160 cubic inches that twists 11,000rpms we definitely will need to be vigilant with injector sizing and fuel pressure to support it...but that's not our world or reality. :nix:
Bob
I don't use the RB Racing one myself.
With the internet, a generic search is not always better.
I stick to the one on my computer. A tool in TTS.
Quote from: Tsani on September 28, 2015, 05:20:21 PM
I don't use the RB Racing one myself.
With the internet, a generic search is not always better.
I stick to the one on my computer. A tool in TTS.
The TTS calculator ignores almost everything critical. Fuel pressure, opening time/closing time/dead time..... Good luck with that.
Well, that and a bit of common sense has been working for me.
Sometimes you just need to trust tried and true knowledge.
Especially when it has been gained by yours or others mistakes.
Ya think Burt Monroe could model everything on a computer?
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 28, 2015, 05:36:07 PM
Quote from: Tsani on September 28, 2015, 05:20:21 PM
I don't use the RB Racing one myself.
With the internet, a generic search is not always better.
I stick to the one on my computer. A tool in TTS.
The TTS calculator ignores almost everything critical. Fuel pressure, opening time/closing time/dead time..... Good luck with that.
Lets keep it simple...because it is....
Simply put, duty cycle is the amount of
time a fuel injector is energized or on during an engine cycle (intake, compression, combustion and exhaust).
Nothing more to it Andy.
Duty Cycle is a reference number to use as a tool to determine when a bigger (or smaller) injector is called for right Andy? No matter the extrainious on/off/dead time, we are talking
relative time and do not need to muddy the water that ends up taking our eye off the ball. :wink:
For example you matter-of-factly mention the TTS calculator doesn't take into consideration
pressure when calculating duty cycle.
Can you explain how duty cycle is affected by pressure?
Bet not,
Bob
Bob, The time that a fuel injector is energized is Pulse Width
Duty Cycle is the percent of the 720 degrees of crank rotation that the fuel injector is energized. (assuming 4 stroke)
Here are a few of the calculators out there on the net.
http://fuelinjectorclinic.com/flow-calculator (http://fuelinjectorclinic.com/flow-calculator)
http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx?UserID=18803956&SessionID=yezGGk73j6w4ToNQiReC (http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx?UserID=18803956&SessionID=yezGGk73j6w4ToNQiReC)
https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/calcinjpulse.html (https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/calcinjpulse.html)
Quote from: FLTRI on September 28, 2015, 07:34:12 PM
For example you matter-of-factly mention the TTS calculator doesn't take into consideration pressure when calculating duty cycle.
Can you explain how duty cycle is affected by pressure?
Bet not,
Bob
:pop:
Quote from: FLTRI on September 28, 2015, 07:34:12 PM
..
Simply put, duty cycle is the amount of time a fuel injector is energized or on during an engine cycle (intake, compression, combustion and exhaust).
Nothing more to it Andy.
Duty cycle is
not a measurement of time. 5th grade math is right..
Well the first two links appear to be useless on a Harley big twin using known information.
RB's, surprise, surprise. Matches info not only given by HD but also listed in the TTS calculator.
Fuel pump and pressures on the HD Big Twin are more than capable of the task.
Fuel pressures are held in a narrow range min. and max. Deviate from that area and you are going to have issues.
Really want to complicate things, wrap your head around what is really going on with fueling in that shared intake tract.
Simple engine, simple design, KISS applies here.
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 28, 2015, 08:21:41 PM
Bob, The time that a fuel injector is energized is Pulse Width
Duty Cycle is the percent of the 720 degrees of crank rotation that the fuel injector is energized. (assuming 4 stroke)
Here are a few of the calculators out there on the net.
http://fuelinjectorclinic.com/flow-calculator (http://fuelinjectorclinic.com/flow-calculator)
http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx?UserID=18803956&SessionID=yezGGk73j6w4ToNQiReC (http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx?UserID=18803956&SessionID=yezGGk73j6w4ToNQiReC)
https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/calcinjpulse.html (https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/calcinjpulse.html)
Andy,
Retread what I said. Not just the highlighted words.
Bob
I was typing on the computer tonight and created a new field
EstimatedFuelFlowFront
And defined that field as
([RPM]*[MAP]*[VE New Front]/[Set Lambda]/1000000)
It tracks almost perfect with Duty Cycle Front (the entire test must be run at one altitude)
Also create a filter named
Transients HD
and define that as
[Acel Enr] >0 or [Decl Enl]>0 or [Acel Enr-1]>0 or [Decl Enl-1]>0 or [Acel Enr+1]>0 or [Decl Enl+1]>0
Have fun tuning
Andy
This may be the best tuned Harley I have seen to date. At least from bike that was not running Target Tune. They tend to be even tighter than this.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/log0030.zip (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/log0030.zip)
I don't recall how he tuned it. Possibly, he will chine in and share his methods. He runs his Harley about as hard as anyone I have run across. This is a little over an hour of data.
Well done.
Andy
Quote from: Coyote on September 28, 2015, 08:53:15 PM
Quote from: FLTRI on September 28, 2015, 07:34:12 PM
..
Simply put, duty cycle is the amount of time a fuel injector is energized or on during an engine cycle (intake, compression, combustion and exhaust).
Nothing more to it Andy.
Duty cycle is not a measurement of time. 5th grade math is right..
Could someone post the equation for figuring duty cycle?
What are the needed inputs and what is the math?
Thank you
Duty cycle is the time the injector is open compared to how much time it has to be open.
If it has 100 seconds to be open and is only open for 40 of those seconds. 40/100 = .4 or 40% duty cycle.
Engine speed will tell you how long you have. Figure how many milliseconds it takes for the engine to spin 720 degrees and how many milliseconds the injector was open. you have 20ms available at 6000. If the injector is open 16ms. 16/20=.8 = 80%
Jason
In your experience have you found that the motors run better pushing the high end of duty cycle or going up to the next injector size. I know different tuners have different thoughts on this topic. Lets assume not overkilling the size up to keep low speeds tunable and smooth. What about pushing the injectors with higher than standard pressure?
Time for two rotations of the crankshaft is
[RPM]=0?1:120000/[RPM]
I define that as MsPerEngineCycle
Then to get Duty Cycle Front
[INJ PW F]/[MsPerEngineCycle]
This also works for TTS Logs but the name for Pulse Width Front changes
Andy
Quote from: HD Street Performance on October 11, 2015, 08:03:30 AM
Jason
In your experience have you found that the motors run better pushing the high end of duty cycle or going up to the next injector size. I know different tuners have different thoughts on this topic. Lets assume not overkilling the size up to keep low speeds tunable and smooth. What about pushing the injectors with higher than standard pressure?
Great question....
I have not experimented with changing injector sizes on Harleys and completely retuning the bike to get fair back to back testing but.......
Generally, the typical max allowable duty cycle is 85%. That works fine in the engine speed that most Harleys spin so let's work with that number. I have found that the max power WOT Duty Cycle of stock Harleys tends to be way less than 85%. I see more like 55% is common. That implies that the injectors are on the large size of the normal range in the industry. I am suspect it has something to do with the what calibration engineers are dealing with fighting a Y intake manifold. If you think about it, if both injectors we running 100%, how would you do front to rear fuel balancing. The closer you get to 100%, the larger this balance act gets.
Andy
Quote from: HD Street Performance on October 11, 2015, 08:03:30 AM
Jason
In your experience have you found that the motors run better pushing the high end of duty cycle or going up to the next injector size. I know different tuners have different thoughts on this topic. Lets assume not overkilling the size up to keep low speeds tunable and smooth. What about pushing the injectors with higher than standard pressure?
I believe in the benefits of lower duty cycle. I see it more at lower throttle setting, idle, and cruise. More fuel on a open valve. I have been working with some 8.1's that have great low DC control. Dead times are real close to the stock 4.3's.
Edited to add: I have tuned a bike and during the last part of it realized I needed bigger injectors. I retuned with bigger injectors and I liked how it ran after the swap better. Got no way to prove it though.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on October 11, 2015, 07:18:20 AM
Could someone post the equation for figuring duty cycle?
What are the needed inputs and what is the math?
Thank you
In MLVHD, most of the time, you can just turn them on.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/025%20Turn%20on%20MAPxRPM.PNG (http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/025%20Turn%20on%20MAPxRPM.PNG)
Andy
Quote from: 1FSTRK on October 11, 2015, 07:18:20 AM
Quote from: Coyote on September 28, 2015, 08:53:15 PM
Quote from: FLTRI on September 28, 2015, 07:34:12 PM
..
Simply put, duty cycle is the amount of time a fuel injector is energized or on during an engine cycle (intake, compression, combustion and exhaust).
Nothing more to it Andy.
Duty cycle is not a measurement of time. 5th grade math is right..
Could someone post the equation for figuring duty cycle?
What are the needed inputs and what is the math?
Thank you
Here ya go:
IDC (in %) = [IPW (ms) * RPM]/1200
So, for example, if IPW = 16ms at 6000 RPM, then IDC would be (16*6000)/1200 = 96000/1200 = 80.0%. The injectors are properly sized for maximum RPM operation.
Bob
Quote
So, for example, if IPW = 16ms at 6000 RPM, then IDC would be 80.0%. The injectors are properly sized for maximum RPM operation.
:scratch:
"At idle speed a 5ms fuel pulse will have duration of 18 degrees of crankshaft rotation, a 10ms pulse at 3000 RPM will last for 180 degrees and a 10ms pulse at 6000 RPM will last 360 degrees." Motec
http://www.motec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=769 (http://www.motec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=769)
SO, if a IPW is 16ms at 6,000rpm then it will take 575* degrees of crankshaft rotation to provide the required fuel... on a motorcycle than has a shared runner/manifold firing every 405-315-405-315-405-310*
There is a lot of sharing of fuel between them cylinders that no ECM, tuner, or god has any control over :wink:
Quote from: q1svt on October 11, 2015, 10:25:40 AM
Quote
So, for example, if IPW = 16ms at 6000 RPM, then IDC would be 80.0%. The injectors are properly sized for maximum RPM operation.
:scratch:
"At idle speed a 5ms fuel pulse will have duration of 18 degrees of crankshaft rotation, a 10ms pulse at 3000 RPM will last for 180 degrees and a 10ms pulse at 6000 RPM will last 360 degrees." Motec
http://www.motec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=769 (http://www.motec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=769)
SO, if a IPW is 16ms at 6,000rpm then it will take 575* degrees of crankshaft rotation to provide the required fuel... on a motorcycle than has a shared runner/manifold firing every 405-315-405-315-405-310*
So what is the correct way to size injectors. I've been led to believe 80-85% max DC is best.
What formula do you use to determine best sizing?
Bob
I'm finding it has to do with the motor in question, and it's intended use. normal, mild, high performance...
Then there are harley's with shared runners/manifolds 404-315*, where at first I through up my hands.
That with harley's we need to run larger injectors [lower duty cycles]. So going plus 1 or 2 may allow a longer rpm range where the IPW is still firing on an open valve AND still be tunable at idle... I'm about to test one that is for 4 cylinder 1800/2000L turbo OEM or light performance turbo tweaked motors. idle IPW controllable/stable to 1.1ms.
Todays injectors are far better than years ago, the spray patterns are better too, so larger no longer means 'fire hose' at low IPW's
I believe it will be the tuners that can/will figure out for HD style injectors which are controllable at idle but still can deliver high er volume.
Quote from: FLTRI on October 11, 2015, 11:14:51 AM
So what is the correct way to size injectors. I've been led to believe 80-85% max DC is best.
What formula do you use to determine best sizing?
Bob
________RPM____Max Allowable Duty Cycle
________6000_______85.0%
________6200_______84.5%
________6400_______84.0%
________6600_______83.5%
________6800_______83.0%
________7000_______82.5%
________7200_______82.0%
________7400_______81.5%
________7600_______81.0%
________7800_______80.5%
________8000_______80.0%
________8200_______79.5%
________8400_______79.0%
________8600_______78.5%
________8800_______78.0%
________9000_______77.5%
________9200_______77.0%
________9400_______76.5%
________9600_______76.0%
________9800_______75.5%
_______10000_______75.0%
In MLV I use the formula Max Allowable DC = 100*((120000/[RPM])-3)/(120000/[RPM])
I also pay attention to DC at max tq and just not max RPM. TTS has a nice way to show it as well.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/11/4e5803e003954d18967df99ec45f0cae.jpg)
Quote from: whittlebeast on October 11, 2015, 12:07:13 PM
Quote from: FLTRI on October 11, 2015, 11:14:51 AM
So what is the correct way to size injectors. I've been led to believe 80-85% max DC is best.
What formula do you use to determine best sizing?
Bob
________RPM____Max Allowable Duty Cycle
________6000_______85.0%
________6200_______84.5%
________6400_______84.0%
________6600_______83.5%
________6800_______83.0%
________7000_______82.5%
________7200_______82.0%
________7400_______81.5%
________7600_______81.0%
________7800_______80.5%
________8000_______80.0%
________8200_______79.5%
________8400_______79.0%
________8600_______78.5%
________8800_______78.0%
________9000_______77.5%
________9200_______77.0%
________9400_______76.5%
________9600_______76.0%
________9800_______75.5%
_______10000_______75.0%
In MLV I use the formula Max Allowable DC = 100*((120000/[RPM])-3)/(120000/[RPM])
So you agree that max is 80-85% DC for Harleys and the rpms they run at? :up:
Bob
VRods can run into the issues around 74.5% DC.
Quote from: whittlebeast on October 11, 2015, 02:44:08 PM
VRods can run into the issues around 74.5% DC.
I've tuned a few over the years and haven't seen issues at 80%. That said these are not Destroyer race bikes. They are relatively stock bikes with various exhausts.
Some Most don't work very well and all. Not enough volume. Rebaffled stock 2into1into2 works very well.
Bob
Here is what it looks like in MLVHD when you are right on the edge. The trace at the bottom.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/975%20Duty%20Cycle%20Reserve.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/975%20Duty%20Cycle%20Reserve.png)
Quote from: FLTRI on October 11, 2015, 02:56:45 PM
Quote from: whittlebeast on October 11, 2015, 02:44:08 PM
VRods can run into the issues around 74.5% DC.
I've tuned a few over the years and haven't seen issues at 80%. That said these are not Destroyer race bikes. They are relatively stock bikes with various exhausts. Some Most don't work very well and all. Not enough volume. Rebaffled stock 2into1into2 works very well.
Bob
Pretty sure these bikes could benifit from an Exup valve also. Would make life a lot easier to have good sampling in the low end for nice stable closed loop. That seems to go to chit as soon as you slip on some better flowing mufflers.
Ron
I got some data today from a guy that was concerned about fueling issues. He supplied with a fairly large but mostly tame riding that was in the area he was concerned with. A VRod is a TPS based VE cal. We can still tune with what we see in the MAP vs RPM scatter plot. At the same time we can display the MAPxRPM vs Duty Cycle and the RPM vs TPS that controls the fueling.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/VRodTpsBasedFuelingIssues.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/VRodTpsBasedFuelingIssues.png)
You can see in the center plot that the fueling is fairly well controlled. I am a little concerned that the light blue areas are lean. The light blue color is all scaled the same in all three plots. I would advise the own to increase the fueling by about 10% in those blue areas and retest to see if the bike rides better.
I also advised him to add the O2 voltage to the log so that we can at least determine if the AFR is swinging leaner than 14.7 at this same place in the fueling.
Have fun tuning
Andy
Quote from: whittlebeast on October 11, 2015, 06:51:27 PM
I got some data today from a guy that was concerned about fueling issues. He supplied with a fairly large but mostly tame riding that was in the area he was concerned with. A VRod is a TPS based VE cal. We can still tune with what we see in the MAP vs RPM scatter plot. At the same time we can display the MAPxRPM vs Duty Cycle and the RPM vs TPS that controls the fueling.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/VRodTpsBasedFuelingIssues.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/VRodTpsBasedFuelingIssues.png)
You can see in the center plot that the fueling is fairly well controlled. I am a little concerned that the light blue areas are lean. The light blue color is all scaled the same in all three plots. I would advise the own to increase the fueling by about 10% in those blue areas and retest to see if the bike rides better.
I also advised him to add the O2 voltage to the log so that we can at least determine if the AFR is swinging leaner than 14.7 at this same place in the fueling.
Have fun tuning
Andy
I suck at reading those . What rpm, tps and which cyl is the lean one? Looks like 3k mid 20s kpa?
Ron
I just looked at Ron's tune with o2 included. It is running fine. I told him to go ride and have fun. Wow VRods are way better behaved with the split intake, as I expected.
Andy
Quote from: whittlebeast on October 14, 2015, 06:01:00 PM
Wow VRods are way better behaved with the split intake, as I expected.
Andy
Were you surprised or not surprised?
Individual intake runners worked very well with the MM EFI. Too well as a matter of fact. Sounded like a metric bike so they purposely went back to shared intake so the engine got its potato, potato, potato back...at least a little.
Bob
It is just nice to see a guy nail a tune and a motor that is well behaved. I assume he did the tune at home, I didn't ask.
Andy
Here are three screen shots of what I am looking at....
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/VRod%20Scatter%20Plot.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/VRod%20Scatter%20Plot.png)
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/VRod%20Histogram.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/VRod%20Histogram.png)
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/VRod%20Log%20View.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/VRod%20Log%20View.png)
It is interesting to watch the injectors as the closed loop jumps in and out on the last plot. Look at the Closed Loop Integrator trace.
In the first shot, the color is O2 voltage scaled from 0 to .84 volts
Have fun tuning
Andy
Here is a filter that you can all use to filter out transients on a Harley.
If you create a filter named Transients HD
and then define it as
[Acel Enr] >0 or [Decl Enl]>0 or [Acel Enr-1]>0 or [Decl Enl-1]>0 or [Acel Enr+1]>0 or [Decl Enl+1]>0 or (abs([Field.RPM] - [RPM-4]) > ([Field.RPM] * 0.10) ) or (abs([Field.TP] - [TP-4]) > 5 ) or (abs([Field.MAP] - [MAP-4]) > ([Field.MAP] * 0.15))
Andy
Quote from: whittlebeast on October 14, 2015, 08:05:35 PM(abs([Field.RPM] - [RPM-4]) > ([Field.RPM] * 0.10) ) or (abs([Field.TP] - [TP-4]) > 5 ) or (abs([Field.MAP] - [MAP-4]) > ([Field.MAP] * 0.15))
You should be using the derivatives for these. As written they are dependent on the input data.
Quote from: ToBeFrank on October 14, 2015, 08:25:41 PM
Quote from: whittlebeast on October 14, 2015, 08:05:35 PM(abs([Field.RPM] - [RPM-4]) > ([Field.RPM] * 0.10) ) or (abs([Field.TP] - [TP-4]) > 5 ) or (abs([Field.MAP] - [MAP-4]) > ([Field.MAP] * 0.15))
You should be using the derivatives for these. As written they are dependent on the input data.
Frank, could you give an example of how you would write a formula for MAP change? As it turns out, I am hanging with the MLV programmers all weekend at a Megasquirt meet.
Andy
Here is what Frank is talking about....
If you write the formula ([MAP]-[MAP-2])/([Time]-[Time-2]) you wind up with the rate of change of MAP per Sec. In the Megasquirt world, that is known as MAPdot
Andy
I have figured out a way to plot where the HD ECU is trying to get locked into closed loop compared to if it actually went active in closed loop.
In theory, all three screen should look the same. In this shot, they look really good.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Harley%20CL%20Verification%20Normal.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Harley%20CL%20Verification%20Normal.png)
Now here is a screen shot of the same motor but running a tune that is so far off on the VEs that the ECU is has having trouble even getting a lock.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Harley%20CL%20Verification%20Trouble.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Harley%20CL%20Verification%20Trouble.png)
I will post the details on how you can do this.
Andy
Quote from: whittlebeast on October 16, 2015, 05:56:57 AM
I have figured out a way to plot where the HD ECU is trying to get locked into closed loop compared to if it actually went active in closed loop.
What do you mean locked compared to active?
I have had several people mention that the Harley flipped upside down compared to my scattor plots. I just noticed that it is possible to flip the map by tricking the software. Check out how I set up the limits by flipping the Min and Max settings.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Flipping%20Scatter%20Plots.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Flipping%20Scatter%20Plots.png)
I will run this past the MLVHD programmers and see if this breaks anything.
Have fun tuning.
Andy
Here is how i generated the plots in post #284
I first created a function
ClosedLoopHD
I defined it as
[Set Lambda]>.973?1:0
And set the scale Min Max to
Min = 0 Max = 1.5
______________________
I then created new field called
ClosedLoopActiveFront
I defined it as
[Front CLI]=100?0:.5
And set the scale Min Max to
Min = 0.1 Max = 0.7
______________________
I then created new field called
ClosedLoopActiveRear
I defined it as
[Rear CLI]=100?0:.5
And set the scale Min Max to
Min = 0.1 Max = 0.7
______________________________
You get the the plots I posted. Yellow is where the motor is in Closed Loop and Blue is where the motor is in Open Loop. A mix of dots is where the motor is having trouble staying in closed loop.
Have fun tuning
Andy
Can any SEPST dongle log any bike?
Andy
With the proper cable yes, except Magneti Marelli bikes I think
How long will these things log before they get full?
Alot if your streaming into the computer
Apparently the red button holds 15 min according to a youtube video.
Quote from: whittlebeast on October 22, 2015, 06:07:33 PM
Apparently the red button holds 15 min according to a youtube video.
It's designed as a diagnostic tool so folks can hopefully capture running issues the shop couldn't repeat.
Bob
I hope to help owners by helping them to verify that their dealer really did tune their bike.
Andy
This is the list of recorded fields from one of the logs I have.
spk_nock_f
spk_nock_r
twist_pct
ve_front
ve_rear
acel_enr
dcel_enl
new_ve_front
new_ve_rear
adv_front
adv_rear
battery_v
eng_speed
eng_temp
front_cli
front_o2
iac_pos
iat
idle_set_spd
inj_pw_front
inj_pw_rear
map
rear_cli
rear_o2
tps_pct
tps_v
veh_speed
af_lambda
warm_fuel_lambda
We should have plenty of data there to help people out.
Andy
There should also be coolant temp and the adaptive fuels right?
Joe, eng_temp is there.
We can calculate AFF based on
new_ve_front = ve_front * front_cli * AFF Front
So in MegaLogViewer HD, you use the formula......
AFF Front = [new_ve_front] / ([ve_front] * [front_cli])
We can do the same sort of thing to generate Duty cycle Front from inj_pw_front and eng_speed
There is a separate line for coolant temp for the twin cooled models.
I've recently got the Megalog viewer and must say, should have done it sooner. While the bike runs ok and this has been confirmed but nothing is ever 100% or will be. However, I've always felt this area lacked in some way for best tune. A bit lazy and not as smooth as I felt it could be. Now I know why. Front cyl is lean here in that what is normally a transitional kpa and rpm. I suppose if one was to split hairs the rear is a touch as well but is probably fine as far as I can tell. Later. I've upped the area 2% for now and mucho better . 5-6% just before the line was leaned a tad also. Seems cleaner and crisper on throttle at 7%. Might need more but have to log again to confirm. Baby steps for now. Riding season just about over, so I'll play with it more next season.
While all this "Potty mouth" can be viewed in PV logs, I must admit looking at graphs like this make things pop out at you. First thing I figured out from good known closed loop areas is the front IPW is on average .12 higher, injector differences, cyl demands or for whatever reason. That was my base line to go looking for fueling issues. Graph jumps right out at you. Scatter plots, well, I struggle understanding that part. :teeth:
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on October 23, 2015, 06:02:49 AM
I've recently got the Megalog viewer and must say, should have done it sooner. While the bike runs ok and this has been confirmed but nothing is ever 100% or will be. However, I've always felt this area lacked in some way for best tune. A bit lazy and not as smooth as I felt it could be. Now I know why. Front cyl is lean here in that what is normally a transitional kpa and rpm. I suppose if one was to split hairs the rear is a touch as well but is probably fine as far as I can tell. Later. I've upped the area 2% for now and mucho better . 5-6% just before the line was leaned a tad also. Seems cleaner and crisper on throttle at 7%. Might need more but have to log again to confirm. Baby steps for now. Riding season just about over, so I'll play with it more next season.
While all this "Potty mouth" can be viewed in PV logs, I must admit looking at graphs like this make things pop out at you. First thing I figured out from good known closed loop areas is the front IPW is on average .12 higher, injector differences, cyl demands or for whatever reason. That was my base line to go looking for fueling issues. Graph jumps right out at you. Scatter plots, well, I struggle understanding that part. :teeth:
Ron
How do you see a lean area?
Bob
Ron, try plotting MAP x RPM instead of MAP. Although it jumps right out as you plotted since your RPM is fairly steady. :up:
Quote from: FLTRI on October 23, 2015, 07:51:56 AM
Quote from: rbabos on October 23, 2015, 06:02:49 AM
I've recently got the Megalog viewer and must say, should have done it sooner. While the bike runs ok and this has been confirmed but nothing is ever 100% or will be. However, I've always felt this area lacked in some way for best tune. A bit lazy and not as smooth as I felt it could be. Now I know why. Front cyl is lean here in that what is normally a transitional kpa and rpm. I suppose if one was to split hairs the rear is a touch as well but is probably fine as far as I can tell. Later. I've upped the area 2% for now and mucho better . 5-6% just before the line was leaned a tad also. Seems cleaner and crisper on throttle at 7%. Might need more but have to log again to confirm. Baby steps for now. Riding season just about over, so I'll play with it more next season.
While all this "Potty mouth" can be viewed in PV logs, I must admit looking at graphs like this make things pop out at you. First thing I figured out from good known closed loop areas is the front IPW is on average .12 higher, injector differences, cyl demands or for whatever reason. That was my base line to go looking for fueling issues. Graph jumps right out at you. Scatter plots, well, I struggle understanding that part. :teeth:
Ron
How do you see a lean area?
Bob
What I see is uneven cyl fueling. 99% of the IPW is having the front .12 nominal higher then the rear. Lean, well that's a guess based on how low the front ve table is in that area compared to surrounding cells and how much smoothness improved by adding 3% to those low cells in the front. Note the kpa line. Two bits of info in that area. Front cyl is one but there's another small issue to both once the front and rear IPW spread is corrected. It is minor and could be left as is. Can you see it?
I'm still fumbling around with Megalog but so far I like it.
Ron
Quote from: Coyote on October 23, 2015, 08:11:47 AM
Ron, try plotting MAP x RPM instead of MAP. Although it jumps right out as you plotted since your RPM is fairly steady. :up:
Yup, I purposely ran that suspect area over and over to see repeats. Like clockwork it showed the same effect each time during that run. I did the MAP X RPM also. Speaking which, what's the difference between that and MAPXRPM other then the numbers change at the bottom?
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on October 23, 2015, 08:53:10 AM
Quote from: Coyote on October 23, 2015, 08:11:47 AM
Ron, try plotting MAP x RPM instead of MAP. Although it jumps right out as you plotted since your RPM is fairly steady. :up:
Yup, I purposely ran that suspect area over and over to see repeats. Like clockwork it showed the same effect each time during that run. I did the MAP X RPM also. Speaking which, what's the difference between that and MAPXRPM other then the numbers change at the bottom?
Ron
Ha, I asked the same question. There is no difference. Not sure why it's in there twice. Maybe some users got used to it written each way so they support both?
I missed where the numbers change. I'll have to look at that.
Andy texted me and says the second one was a mistake. The numerical diff is the decimal place is moved over two places. One will eventually be removed as the software is updated.
Quote from: Coyote on October 23, 2015, 09:04:36 AM
Andy texted me and says the second one was a mistake. The numerical diff is the decimal place is moved over two places. One will eventually be removed as the software is updated.
Thanks.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on October 23, 2015, 08:49:19 AM
What I see is uneven cyl fueling. 99% of the IPW is having the front .12 nominal higher then the rear. Lean, well that's a guess...
Can you see it?...
Ron
I do see where front and rear fueling is a bit different but that is normal since front and rear cylinders do not always (or at all) demand same fueling or you would only need to copy and paste one cylinder to the other and call it good?
Is this the same tune Andy impressed with?
Bob
Quote from: FLTRI on October 23, 2015, 09:55:37 AM
Quote from: rbabos on October 23, 2015, 08:49:19 AM
What I see is uneven cyl fueling. 99% of the IPW is having the front .12 nominal higher then the rear. Lean, well that's a guess...
Can you see it?...
Ron
I do see where front and rear fueling is a bit different but that is normal since front and rear cylinders do not always (or at all) demand same fueling or you would only need to copy and paste one cylinder to the other and call it good?
Is this the same tune Andy impressed with?
Bob
And your point is what? No tune is perfect even though it runs fine. I just like to know if what I'm seeing in the log is accurate, then over time make slight adjustments when the mood hits me.
That being that the rear is a hair lean and the front leaner then the rear at that rpm, tps and kpa.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on October 23, 2015, 11:30:13 AM
Quote from: FLTRI on October 23, 2015, 09:55:37 AM
Quote from: rbabos on October 23, 2015, 08:49:19 AM
What I see is uneven cyl fueling. 99% of the IPW is having the front .12 nominal higher then the rear. Lean, well that's a guess...
Can you see it?...
Ron
I do see where front and rear fueling is a bit different but that is normal since front and rear cylinders do not always (or at all) demand same fueling or you would only need to copy and paste one cylinder to the other and call it good?
Is this the same tune Andy impressed with?
Bob
And your point is what? No tune is perfect even though it runs fine. I just like to know if what I'm seeing in the log is accurate, then over time make slight adjustments when the mood hits me.
That being that the rear is a hair lean and the front leaner then the rear at that rpm, tps and kpa.
Ron
No point, just asking. You state the rear is a hair lean and the front is leaner than the rear.
But you also stated earlier you were guessing at the AFR. "What I see is uneven cyl fueling. 99% of the IPW is having the front .12 nominal higher then the rear. Lean,
well that's a guess"
Since you know no tune can be perfect I assume you have no complaint with the run quality but you have a new toy to mess with?
If you make a change to the tune and actually feel it run better can you assume the tune was that close? :idunno:
Bob
Bob, read your very own sig. How does anyone know when the tune is "Perfect". Is the next tweak a "Little More Perfect"? What is close enough?
The guy has a new toy and he is enjoying learning. I just hope he is willing to share what he learns.
Andy
Quote from: FLTRI on October 23, 2015, 04:13:48 PM
Quote from: rbabos on October 23, 2015, 11:30:13 AM
Quote from: FLTRI on October 23, 2015, 09:55:37 AM
Quote from: rbabos on October 23, 2015, 08:49:19 AM
What I see is uneven cyl fueling. 99% of the IPW is having the front .12 nominal higher then the rear. Lean, well that's a guess...
Can you see it?...
Ron
I do see where front and rear fueling is a bit different but that is normal since front and rear cylinders do not always (or at all) demand same fueling or you would only need to copy and paste one cylinder to the other and call it good?
Is this the same tune Andy impressed with?
Bob
And your point is what? No tune is perfect even though it runs fine. I just like to know if what I'm seeing in the log is accurate, then over time make slight adjustments when the mood hits me.
That being that the rear is a hair lean and the front leaner then the rear at that rpm, tps and kpa.
Ron
No point, just asking. You state the rear is a hair lean and the front is leaner than the rear.
But you also stated earlier you were guessing at the AFR. "What I see is uneven cyl fueling. 99% of the IPW is having the front .12 nominal higher then the rear. Lean, well that's a guess"
Since you know no tune can be perfect I assume you have no complaint with the run quality but you have a new toy to mess with?
If you make a change to the tune and actually feel it run better can you assume the tune was that close? :idunno:
Bob
Keep in mind this area is transitional and the bike rarely gets ridden there in steady state. It's low rpm high load puts it in a state of what many would call lugging. I first saw it in transition in the log so went hunting for it in steady state to be sure. The transition state is so brief no running issues show up. I just want it to run perfect there also, not that I will visit that area much afterwards. I see it, I want to fix it, that's all.
Like Andy said, I found a new toy to play with to further refine what I have.
Ron
Based on your plot and comments, I would have said it was lean on both cyl in that area.
Quote from: Coyote on October 23, 2015, 09:31:44 PM
Based on your plot and comments, I would have said it was lean on both cyl in that area.
Correct. :up: That's how I see it as well. So, we are both reading this correctly or we are both wrong. :hyst: I do know the root cause of this, confirmation, and solution.
Ron
Just got this log from a member with a v rod. Now, I'm as green as they come to reading this but what I see, it looks pretty damn fine and coming along nicely . Only 3 brief runs with TT.
Ron
When looking at MAP vs RPM plots with a target tune bike, at first I bet the AFF would be best as the color to see how how close the base VE numbers are.
Keep in mind that the Vrod and Sportster tunes are TPS based tuning so you really need TPS vs RPM and AFF as the color to tune them.
I tend to filter out when the target RPM is greater than the full warm idle. I also toss out transitions by looking at the AE and DE values. I can post the filter I use in a couple of days when I get back home.
Andy
I was messing around this evening and came up with a way to get a trace that shows what gear you are in on a log.
I created a field named Shift and defined it as
[VSS]<6?-11.6:sqrt([RPM]/[VSS])>11.6?-11.6:-1*sqrt([RPM]/[VSS])
At the bottom of this plot, you can see the result in red.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20Gear%20Changes.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20Gear%20Changes.png)
Andy
OK, I get it, I am a bit of a Geek and spend lots of time looking for patterns. I was wondering what I could see with this new "Shift" function. The first screen shot is off of my sporty running around town, doing some TT tuning. Blue dots are first gear and red is 5th gear.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20Operating%20Range.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20Operating%20Range.png)
Notice on the right plot that a big section of the MAP vs RPM plot is almost only seen in first gear. Almost never seen in any other gear.
So then I started to wonder what this would look like on data coming from a friend tat runs the crud out of his Big Twin. This guy happens to be in Europe so the speeds are in KPA. No big deal....
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Big%20Twin%20TT%20Operating%20Range.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Big%20Twin%20TT%20Operating%20Range.png)
Notice how much time he spends at near 100 KPA between 2100 and 3400 RPM in 5th and 6th gear.
Here it is with color representing Hits or a high percentage of time. It is clear where in the power band this guy needs to have a near perfect tune. Very different than mine.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Big%20Twin%20TT%20Operating%20Range%20Hits.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Big%20Twin%20TT%20Operating%20Range%20Hits.png)
I may have an addiction.... What can I say?
Andy
Here is a scatter plot showing where he spends most of his riding time on the left compared to where he is in closed loop shown on the right as yellow.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Big%20Twin%20TT%20Operating%20Range%20in%20Closed%20Loop.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Big%20Twin%20TT%20Operating%20Range%20in%20Closed%20Loop.png)
Andy
And one more comparison.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Big%20Twin%20TT%20Lambda%20Target%20vs%20Closed%20Loop%20Active.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Big%20Twin%20TT%20Lambda%20Target%20vs%20Closed%20Loop%20Active.png)
ClosedLoopActiveFront was defined with the simple formula
[Front CLI]=100?0:.5
Here is data from my Sporty from about 2.5 hours of riding. All this data is all on the same tune. A little bit of all sorts of riding. Note that his is a TPS based fueling calibration.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20Three%20Views%20Front.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20Three%20Views%20Front.png)
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20Three%20Views%20Rear.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20Three%20Views%20Rear.png)
That is about as tight of AFR control as you can expect to get on a wobble fire, Y intake manifold, port injected motor. Check out the center plots and how close to linear they both are. Note that this motor was never been on a dyno as all tuning was done with data logging and Autotuning.
Andy
Open all four of these logs at the same time to see the raw data in MegaLogViewer HD.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/SportyTTLogs.zip (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/SportyTTLogs.zip)
My Cal is a TPS based fuel map. I like to look at fueling MAP based. My motor also has Adaptive Fueling turned off. All fuel corrections are done on the Closed Loop Interrogators and are logged as Front CLI and Rear CLI. These are the two viewed that I look at for looking for clear trends as to where I need to make corrections in the fuel maps.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20CLI%20Front.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20CLI%20Front.png)
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20CLI%20Rear.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20CLI%20Rear.png)
A clearly red area indicated I am about 1 AFR lean or about 7% lean. A clearly blue area indicated I am about 1 AFR rich or about 7% rich. Keep in mind that all adjustments need to be made on the right plot as that is how the fueling is set up in my Cal. The big twin guys get to do fueling corrections on the left side plots.
Have fun tuning.
Andy
What does this mean?
Ron
NaN stands for "Not a Number". Look at the raw data in the log and see what is there.
Quote from: whittlebeast on November 03, 2015, 12:30:51 PM
NaN stands for "Not a Number". Look at the raw data in the log and see what is there.
Looks normal to me in the .csv.
Ron
Here is my stock tune that pulsed and throbbed and I generally hated.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20Stock%20MAPxRPM%20vs%20DC.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20Stock%20MAPxRPM%20vs%20DC.png)
Here is the tune I was running 5 years ago. Lots better than stock. Hand tuned and mostly open loop.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20Tuned%20%20MAPxRPM%20vs%20DC.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20Tuned%20%20MAPxRPM%20vs%20DC.png)
And here is the tune that developed using the Target Tune. Far and away, a smoother running bike.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20MAPxRPM%20vs%20DC.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TT%20MAPxRPM%20vs%20DC.png)
The graphs show why. Way more consistent control of the injectors now.
Andy
Here are a few examples of using filters to your advantage. The first two links are comparing the same bike with MAP based tuning on the left and TPS base tuning on the right.
First with no filters
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20MAP%20vs%20TPS%20Based%20Tuning%20No%20Filters.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20MAP%20vs%20TPS%20Based%20Tuning%20No%20Filters.png)
Then applying filters to toss out the restart (less than 60 sec run time), data when the AE or DE are active and zero throttle.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20MAP%20vs%20TPS%20Based%20Tuning%20Filtered.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20MAP%20vs%20TPS%20Based%20Tuning%20Filtered.png)
This is MAP based tuning on both sides but on the left is no filters and on the right is with filters applied.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20Tuned%20%20MAP%20vs%20RPM%20Filters.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20Tuned%20%20MAP%20vs%20RPM%20Filters.png)
And then the MAPxRPM compared without filters on the left and then filtered on the right.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20Tuned%20%20MAPxRPM%20Filters.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20Tuned%20%20MAPxRPM%20Filters.png)
Have fun tuning
Andy
Here is a cool screen shot coming off my Sporty running Target Tune ans TPS based tuning.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TPS%20Based%20Tuning%20Filtered.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20TPS%20Based%20Tuning%20Filtered.png)
It will be tough to get any more text book than that. You can see the filters I used to generate that shot. That is about 2 hours of data.
Andy
Here is a plot of the stock Sportster O2 closed loop behavior. That is an insane swing in duty cycle. The color indicated O2 Voltage. What a mess...
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20Narrow%20Bands%20Switching.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20Narrow%20Bands%20Switching.png)
Andy
Here is something I wrote this weekend to help people get started in the tuning world. It is written for the big picture of tuning and not really just Harley Tuning. See if it helps.
www.nbs-stl.com/tuning/BasicTuning101.pdf (http://www.nbs-stl.com/tuning/BasicTuning101.pdf)
I reserve the right to change it at any time :smilep:
Andy
Nice read Andy. :up:
Good information for beginners.. good job Andy
On the EFI 101 PDF... What do I need to add? What part of EFI throws people?
Andy I am plum tuckered out tonight but I'll read it tomorrow, I'm probably the most EFI ignorant in the group.
from the thread http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,87059.0.html (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,87059.0.html)
Below are a few MLV screenshots of the latest log he provided, closed loop is averaging within about 1% correction for both CLI (short term) and AFF (long term) multipliers.
(http://s27.postimg.org/h7bddadcj/scatter1.png)
(http://s24.postimg.org/uk47t9hz9/scatter2.png)
(http://s2.postimg.org/3xa87jzg9/Strip1.png)
Look real close to me....
Andy,
I have read your intro a few times and I really like what you have done there.
Can you write something specifically for Harley motors?
Thanks again for all of your time, your willingness to share your knowledge is commendable.
The only thing that is different in the Harley world is the terminology. The logic, is for the most part, is all the same.
Trying to utilize the narrowbands way out at the edge of usability is a little unique it the Harley world.
Andy
Quote from: whittlebeast on November 20, 2015, 03:40:57 PM
The logic, is for the lost part, is all the same.
Andy
:hyst: Very good..
spell check.....
I have been editing the EFI Tuning doc at
http://www.nbs-stl.com/tuning/BasicTuning101.pdf (http://www.nbs-stl.com/tuning/BasicTuning101.pdf)
See what you think.... It is a work in process.
Andy
I came up with two simple filters that finds where you spend most of your riding time. In a last screen, you find out just how tight your tune is in most of the time you ride.
The first filter simply throws out when you are at 0 throttle. This tosses out the time idling.
The filter is written
Zero Throttle
And define it as
[TP]< 1
Then you plot X=RPM Y = MAP and X=Hits
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20Cruise%20Area.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/Sporty%20Cruise%20Area.png)
The left most screen shows the results. The red areas are where you spend the most time riding. If you are looking for fuel economy, that is where you want to be as lean as possible and still have the motor happy.
Now I create a filter to isolate just this area.
Mid Range Only
And define it as
[RPM] <2000 or [RPM]> 3700 or [MAP] < 26 or [MAP] > 55
Note:Your numbers will be slightly different, depending what you see as your red area in the first screen.
The screen on the right is X= MAPxRPM Y=Duty Cycle Front or Rear and Z=AFR Front or Rear with filters applied. You want nearly a straight line in this area that shows up.
I also have a filter that throws out AE and DE
Transient HD
And I define it as
[Acel Enr] >0 or [Decl Enl]>0
Have fun tuning
Andy
Hello Andy,
Is there a filter to set the hit counts like for Max and Min
Thanks
Sarhan
top stuff Andy
Here is a speech I did at a Megasquirt Meet with the matching PDF regarding understanding MLV data.
Megasquirt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tijfx9pqgsU&feature=youtu.be#)
http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/MLVHD%20Demo.pdf (http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/MLVHD%20Demo.pdf)
Andy
:up: :up:
Just for fun, I was playing with some data that a friend got at an autocross, from his Honda Civic. This is coming from his SoloStorm software on his Android connected with bluetooth to a QStarz GPS.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/GAX5-Sean-4.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/GAX5-Sean-4.png)
On the left is what is known as the traction circle. See http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/traction_circle.html (http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/traction_circle.html)
On the right is the path he drove in about 45 sec.
Here is the matching video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIEXEbI3Qk4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIEXEbI3Qk4)
Andy
Just for fun, here is a data log screen shot off my newest motor after coming off a warmup and about 4 min on track.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/CRX%20Basic%20Usage.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/CRX%20Basic%20Usage.png)
Here is what 3 typical sweeps of a WOT dyno sweeps will cover.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/Dyno%20Pull%20AFR.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/Dyno%20Pull%20AFR.png)
I learned a ton of info on track that I would never have found on the dyno. I will post a data log after I have a few more real world data logs.
Here is a fuel pressure WOT test.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uABr5xN0uPE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uABr5xN0uPE)
Have fun tuning.
Andy
Here is just another Sunday afternoon, collecting a little data.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iNdHm81lgs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iNdHm81lgs)
Here is what 40 sec of data looks like off that sort of data collection
http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/CRX%20Autocross%20Trace.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/CRX%20Autocross%20Trace.png)
Have fun tuning.
Andy
Here is the amount of data and map coverage I get in only 5 min of real world driving with my new setup. And yes, I am thrashing hard on the motor..
http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/CRX%20Autocross%20Scatter%20Plot.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/CRX%20Autocross%20Scatter%20Plot.png)
When a Dyno guy does a WOT sweep and hand you a dyno sheet, here is that amount of the map he covers.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/Dyno%20Pull%20AFR.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/Dyno%20Pull%20AFR.png)
Andy
You know Andy, this stuff all looks pretty cool but what does it mean? Are we supposed to eat psychedelics before viewing?
I've asked the very same question in an engineering meeting and got a good answer.. So
:pop:
Quote from: whittlebeast on April 20, 2016, 08:44:07 AM
Here is the amount of data and map coverage I get in only 5 min of real world driving with my new setup. And yes, I am thrashing hard on the motor..
http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/CRX%20Autocross%20Scatter%20Plot.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/CRX%20Autocross%20Scatter%20Plot.png)
When a Dyno guy does a WOT sweep and hand you a dyno sheet, here is that amount of the map he covers.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/Dyno%20Pull%20AFR.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/Dyno%20Pull%20AFR.png)
Andy
Ok, I see where you are going with the volume of data and while it does show there are changes in climate, it does not prove it is warming or that man is the definitive cause of it. I can only conclude it is not the volume of data that counts, it is the accuracy with which it is interpreted that yields useful results but maybe I am just in the wrong place at the wrong time here.
Tuning a motor really is a little like your analogy. You may not know exactly the cause but you can clearly see a pattern if you are willing to look. If the Google earth pics of the forest used to be green and now they are brown, something is going on.
In the case of a motor, rich patterns and lean patterns can be AE/DE related or it can be VE related, it is a little difficult to be sure. What you can see is a clear pattern where the color (AFR) is not what you expect.
Here is the same screen shot but I have highlighted the areas where I have concerns. Keep in mind that this motor was tuned on a dyno before I ever raced it.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/CRX%20Autocross%20Scatter%20Plot%20Boxed.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/CRX%20Autocross%20Scatter%20Plot%20Boxed.png)
On the left is speed density with RPM and MAP and in the center is the Alpha-N plot with RPM and TPS. The boxes on both sides match by color. The red and purple boxes are rich (blue) and the gold and green boxes are quite lean (red).
Do I have everyone so far?
Quote from: whittlebeast on April 20, 2016, 08:44:07 AM
Here is the amount of data and map coverage I get in only 5 min of real world driving with my new setup. And yes, I am thrashing hard on the motor..
http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/CRX%20Autocross%20Scatter%20Plot.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/CRX%20Autocross%20Scatter%20Plot.png)
When a Dyno guy does a WOT sweep and hand you a dyno sheet, here is that amount of the map he covers.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/Dyno%20Pull%20AFR.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/Dyno%20Pull%20AFR.png)
Andy
You never adress the fact that you are riding/driving out of tune while you are collecting large data. I'll take a short accurate data run on an untuned engine on a dyno over a large data run on an untuned engine on the street any day. On other thing you clearly don't understand is we can do large data runs on a dyno in a controlled enviornment. You seam to generalize all dyno operators as people that just do sweeps. I realize that the products you sell/endorse are in direct competition with dyno's and you have to market against them.
Did you miss that this motor was tuned on a dyno with plenty of sweeps. This is taking tuning to the next step once the dyno tuning is done. At least for 90 percent of the riding time. Sure, a dyno can get to places that a mild mannered rider seldom if ever gets to. In the case of this motor. I am getting to places and conditions that simply can not be duplicated on a dyno.
Quote from: whittlebeast on April 21, 2016, 08:39:25 AM
Did you miss that this motor was tuned on a dyno with plenty of sweeps. This is taking tuning to the next step once the dyno tuning is done. At least for 90 percent of the riding time. Sure, a dyno can get to places that a mild mannered rider seldom if ever gets to. In the case of this motor. I am getting to places and conditions that simply can not be duplicated on a dyno.
I think he's missing the fact that you don't drive motorcycles on a dyno.. The aren't any stop signs, corners, speed limits etc..
Here is a similar plot for one of my bikes.. I cut adjusted the range to go from 12 to 15 instead off 11 to 15 mainly to increase contrast one the AFR..
[attach=0]
Max, that is really good. Post up MAPxRPM vs Duty Cycle front and rear.
Also post up the MAP vs RPM and AFF Front and Rear.
I would love to see how your tune is coming along.
Quote from: Max Headflow on April 21, 2016, 08:58:53 AM
Quote from: whittlebeast on April 21, 2016, 08:39:25 AM
Did you miss that this motor was tuned on a dyno with plenty of sweeps. This is taking tuning to the next step once the dyno tuning is done. At least for 90 percent of the riding time. Sure, a dyno can get to places that a mild mannered rider seldom if ever gets to. In the case of this motor. I am getting to places and conditions that simply can not be duplicated on a dyno.
I think he's missing the fact that you don't drive motorcycles on a dyno.. The aren't any stop signs, corners, speed limits etc..
:scratch: Which one of these can not be done on a dyno? I don't need a stop sign to stop, I can hit any speed an maintain it, and cornering has no effect on a tune at all (it's just acceleration and deceleration, and on a dyno I can do it at different loads which would simulate uphill and downhill).
What dyno can hold 100 mph wheel speed at 0 throttle?
Quote from: whittlebeast on April 21, 2016, 08:39:25 AM
Did you miss that this motor was tuned on a dyno with plenty of sweeps.
Tuned on a dyno but by who and how and with what? Were your pictures of the "dyno sweeps" before the tune or after the tune. Anybody can show data to support their argument. I've been tuning for over 15 years, averaged 364 full tunes a year from '09 to '14, find me the un-satisfied customers out their that I tuned.
Quote from: whittlebeast on April 21, 2016, 05:11:14 PM
What dyno can hold 100 mph wheel speed at 0 throttle?
That's one hell of a downhill to hit on the street. The dyno I ran at Roeders could though to answer your question. It would take 2 bikes to do it but it damn sure could
Here is a sweep checking WOT fuel pressure. That is a NA 1488cc motor built for torque so the low HP peak. The same motor on a roller dyno would be right at 142 hp. It has a fairly mild cam. Right now we redline it at 8700. We kept bouncing it off 8100 :SM:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uABr5xN0uPE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uABr5xN0uPE)
http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/CRX%20Dyno%20Graph.jpg (http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/CRX%20Dyno%20Graph.jpg)
http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/Dyno%20Pull%20Graph.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/Dyno%20Pull%20Graph.png)
Andy
Quote from: harleytuner on April 21, 2016, 05:07:07 PM
Quote from: Max Headflow on April 21, 2016, 08:58:53 AM
Quote from: whittlebeast on April 21, 2016, 08:39:25 AM
Did you miss that this motor was tuned on a dyno with plenty of sweeps. This is taking tuning to the next step once the dyno tuning is done. At least for 90 percent of the riding time. Sure, a dyno can get to places that a mild mannered rider seldom if ever gets to. In the case of this motor. I am getting to places and conditions that simply can not be duplicated on a dyno.
I think he's missing the fact that you don't drive motorcycles on a dyno.. The aren't any stop signs, corners, speed limits etc..
:scratch: Which one of these can not be done on a dyno? I don't need a stop sign to stop, I can hit any speed an maintain it, and cornering has no effect on a tune at all (it's just acceleration and deceleration, and on a dyno I can do it at different loads which would simulate uphill and downhill).
Can you program in a 6th gear to 3rd gear decel, then simulate an up hill grade through back to 5th, a long roll off down hill coast in 3rd gear where the bike is in 3rd with throttle shut off but the down hill is keeping the Rs at 3500? Can you set up a constant load on the drum (not drum speed)? Simulate different weights of the bike?
If the answer is yes, then do you have a set of programmed load and throttle points that you use to validate you tune? Or do you test ride?
Might want to try riding a bike on nice curvy road sometime.
Quote from: whittlebeast on April 21, 2016, 12:27:43 PM
Max, that is really good. Post up MAPxRPM vs Duty Cycle front and rear.
Also post up the MAP vs RPM and AFF Front and Rear.
I would love to see how your tune is coming along.
This OK for the first one?
[attach=0]
What is AFF?
AFF is your adaptive fuel factor, or long term fuel trim. It is how hard the ECU has found it has to lean on the VE to get the AFR match the Target AFR. If that comes up close to 100 everywhere, your fuel maps are golden.
Andy
Quote from: Max Headflow on April 21, 2016, 09:47:50 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on April 21, 2016, 05:07:07 PM
Quote from: Max Headflow on April 21, 2016, 08:58:53 AM
Quote from: whittlebeast on April 21, 2016, 08:39:25 AM
Did you miss that this motor was tuned on a dyno with plenty of sweeps. This is taking tuning to the next step once the dyno tuning is done. At least for 90 percent of the riding time. Sure, a dyno can get to places that a mild mannered rider seldom if ever gets to. In the case of this motor. I am getting to places and conditions that simply can not be duplicated on a dyno.
I think he's missing the fact that you don't drive motorcycles on a dyno.. The aren't any stop signs, corners, speed limits etc..
:scratch: Which one of these can not be done on a dyno? I don't need a stop sign to stop, I can hit any speed an maintain it, and cornering has no effect on a tune at all (it's just acceleration and deceleration, and on a dyno I can do it at different loads which would simulate uphill and downhill).
Can you program in a 6th gear to 3rd gear decel, then simulate an up hill grade through back to 5th, a long roll off down hill coast in 3rd gear where the bike is in 3rd with throttle shut off but the down hill is keeping the Rs at 3500? Can you set up a constant load on the drum (not drum speed)? Simulate different weights of the bike?
If the answer is yes, then do you have a set of programmed load and throttle points that you use to validate you tune? Or do you test ride?
Might want to try riding a bike on nice curvy road sometime.
When you tune you are calibrating the ECM to hit target areas in cells, weather it's VE, spark, etc. Once the cells are calibrated it doesn't matter weather or not you are accelerating or decelerating, the target is the same going through the areas, AI & DE come into play.
Can you hit 2,5,7,10,15,20,25% TP at 1250 Rpm's and hold it on the street long enough to get good data? 1500RPM? 1750RPM? Etc. How long after the combustion event takes place does is data recorded on street tuning? When using load on a dyno we can hold an area as long as it takes to get an accurate reading.
My shop is 80' above sea level, I can be at the Blue Ridge Parkway and the Shenandoah mountain area in about 45 minutes. I ride there often, as well as many of my costumers. So yes, I hit the twisties quit often.
Lot's people are shocked when they see data coming off their own bike as to where they really spend time running the motor. What happens when they go up one of those mountain passes. Or sit in heavy traffic and then roll up the highway entrance with a low fuel level. I have even seen motors ridden with a 30 MPH tail wind wile climbing a mountain pass. Strange things happen in the real world.
Andy
Quote from: whittlebeast on April 22, 2016, 05:52:01 AM
Lot's people are shocked when they see data coming off their own bike as to where they really spend time running the motor. What happens when they go up one of those mountain passes. Or sit in heavy traffic and then roll up the highway entrance with a low fuel level. I have even seen motors ridden with a 30 MPH tail wind wile climbing a mountain pass. Strange things happen in the real world.
Andy
:up: While you can fill the fuel maps up with static loading, you can't see what happens under all conditions. Examples include engine temps, changes in barometric pressure different combinations of load. After all the dyno can only tune under fixed conditions. Also, it's a good way to validate the tune and make sure important fringe cells and settings were not missed.
This is really cool. Did you ever wonder where you spend most of your time in the VE Map. This happens to be 7 autocross runs with 3 different drivers. Data was collected in about 5 min of driving.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/Autocross%20CRX%20RPM%20MAP%20and%20Time.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/Autocross%20CRX%20RPM%20MAP%20and%20Time.png)
The blue lines are where the motor passed thru the map.
Andy
Have you ever wondered why all high HP NA motors run ITBs? I am about to take everything I have shared with you guys and take it to an entirely new level of info of how motors work. The motor in all of these screen shots is a relatively low reving motor with a torque peak of 5500 RPM and max power is at 7200 RPM.
Keep in mind that with a Harley, if you plot MAPxRPM compared to DutyCycle, you almost always get a straight line. This rule works when the intake and exhaust never realy get into resonance. They are really just pipes to contain the intake mixture and a pipe to channel the hot exhaust. Double the RPM and the flow doubles. Double the MAP and the flow doubles. With ITBs all the rules change.
Let's look at what the MAPxRPM vs DC looks like if we limit data below 85 KPA and Limit the huge throttles to just 15% throttle. Keep in mind that these are 45mm throttles feeding 375cc cylinders so 15% is a fair amount for throttle.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/ITB%20MAPxRPM%20vs%20DC%20at%20Low%20Power%20Levels.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/ITB%20MAPxRPM%20vs%20DC%20at%20Low%20Power%20Levels.png)
Relativity straight lines but RPM appears to have an effect on the straight line thing.
So now let"s see what happens when you add the high MAP region all the way up thru WOT
http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/ITB%20MAPxRPM%20vs%20DC%20at%20All%20Power%20Levels.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/ITB%20MAPxRPM%20vs%20DC%20at%20All%20Power%20Levels.png)
So much for a straight line..... What are we looking at?
Let's take a look at what things look like when we look at any one RPM.
Here are four plots. On the left is showing only 4000 RPM. Then 5000 RPM, 6000 RPM and on the right is 7000 RPM. The color is showing TPS. Notice each line has a kink at about 20% throttle where I left the cross-hairs. To the left and below the the cross, things look normal or a straight line. Above the 20% TPS, the motor wants way more fuel. Keep in mind that MAPxRPM on most motors is essentially air flow.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/CRX%20ITB%20Mode%20Cal.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/CRX%20ITB%20Mode%20Cal.png)
So now, let's look at low HP mode on the left and High HP mode on the right.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/ITB%20MAPxMPM%20Low%20vs%20High%20Power.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/ITB%20MAPxMPM%20Low%20vs%20High%20Power.png)
We can start dissecting the data at at this high HP range and figure out what thing drive other things.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/ITB%20MAPxRPM%20vs%20DC%20at%20High%20Power.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/ITB%20MAPxRPM%20vs%20DC%20at%20High%20Power.png)
In all three shots, I have filtered out below 85 KPA and data below 15% throttle. Check out how the DC is a function of RPM, MAP and TPS.
Here is how the Estimated HP works out. Low power on the left and high power on the right. This thing totally changes personality below about 18 to 22% throttle.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/ITB%20MAPxMPM%20Low%20vs%20High%20Power.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/ITB%20MAPxMPM%20Low%20vs%20High%20Power.png)
Now the fun parts starts. How would you build a Harley if you want to get into the 100 HP per liter range where the rice bikes play all the time? For what it is worth, this motor has an intake length that is close to 12" from intake valve to base of the air filter.
see http://www.bgsoflex.com/intakeln.html (http://www.bgsoflex.com/intakeln.html)
Keep in mind that all this data was collected in about 5 min without a dyno.
Here is the same data shown in Speed Density on the left and Alpha-N in the center
http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/CRX%20Autocross%20Scatter%20Plot%202.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/CRX%20Autocross%20Scatter%20Plot%202.png)
Have fun tuning
Andy
Quote from: whittlebeast on May 04, 2016, 08:10:26 PM
How would you build a Harley if you want to get into the 100 HP per liter range where the rice bikes play all the time?
I'd shorten the stroke to half what it is, double the number of cylinders, and rev the piss out of it. Just like the rice bikes do. But then I'd simply have an inferior rice bike. I think I'll stick with what works best on a for-the-road bike...
If you simply don't care, simply don't read. I enjoy sharing what I learn.
I care just fine.
I think it would be really cool to design a true ITB Harley. It would not be that tough to design a valiable length setup to see how the motor responded to different length intake tracks. My bet is you would have to go to true dual exhaust to get things to really work.
Packaging it between the heads would be the big problem. I wonder if you can do two front heads like the old flat track Sportys.
Andy
Quote from: whittlebeast on April 24, 2016, 07:37:05 AM
This is really cool. Did you ever wonder where you spend most of your time in the VE Map. This happens to be 7 autocross runs with 3 different drivers. Data was collected in about 5 min of driving.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/Autocross%20CRX%20RPM%20MAP%20and%20Time.png (http://www.nbs-stl.com/CRX/Autocross%20CRX%20RPM%20MAP%20and%20Time.png)
The blue lines are where the motor passed thru the map.
Andy
I'm still trying to figure how to create the blue line from the scatter plot.
I tried moving the mouse over the scatter plot and clicking on the areas
where the AFF is showing blue/rich areas, but my markers (?) don't seem
to show up logically and correspondingly on the histogram/table generator.
Sometimes it's close, the next try is way different than the areas I scanned
with the mouse, feels almost random.
Wouldn't it be a good feature, if you could color the scatter plot area with the mouse
(keep button pressed and shade the area on the plot), and the shaded area would
then appear on the VE table ? Or is there already this feature hidden somewhere ?
Also clicking on the scatter plot keeps chancing the x/y scale every now and then.
Is there a "reset" feature for the blue graph, or is reloading the file the only way to
remove it, to get a Tabula rasa ?
I read this whole 16 page thread, and a lot of good stuff here.
What's puzzling me is, that there are no guides for using this MLV program.
Lot's of data and features are available, but the basic How to's are no where to be found ?
Definitely not for beginners ...
Regarding the blue line trace. Right mouse click out in the histogram field and choose <history trace length> and make that number say 5000 and then go near the end of the log to see the last 5000 points.
Control P for Play and Control S for Stop is rather cool. It plays in real time on most logs.
Andy
It's Cool.
But is there a way to plot an area from the scatter plot, i.e. the lean/rich sections,
so that the plotted line/area would show up in the VE table ?
That would make it easy to see the values needing to be adjusted.
I assume you are saying you want to narrow down the info some on the scatter plot or the histogram. There are several ways to do that. On the scatter plot, you can set the nimber of dots to 30 or so and set the verical at the little trace at the bottom of your screen to the point of you want. The blue line shows where yo were right before. There are also sliders at the bottom of the screen that you can use to throw out all date except the info you want to look at.
(http://i8.aijaa.com/t/00344/14171901.t.jpg) (http://aijaa.com/c5wxmB)
I'd like to shade or crop an area from scatter plot so, that the shaded cropped area would
show up on the Histogram/Table generator.
Maybe there's no use for it, I just thought it would be handy.
Quote from: whittlebeast on September 25, 2015, 05:22:54 AM(abs([RPM] - [RPM-4]) > ([RPM] * 0.10) ) or (abs([TP] - [TP-4]) > 5 ) or (abs([MAP] - [MAP-4]) > ([MAP] * 0.15) )
What's the abs tag represent?
Pretty sure the math functions are listed in the help file. abs is absolute.
Quote from: Coyote on July 21, 2022, 06:25:01 AMPretty sure the math functions are listed in the help file. abs is absolute.
Yes, of course you are correct. I didn't make the connection. Thanks